11-87 fail to fire

aghoover

aghoover

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Hey Guys,

I've tried to search for this problem, but to no avail.

I have a 3' 12g 11-87 premier. According to the serial number I believe it is from the late 80s, I bought it used at a gun shop. It used to have troubles cycling light loads, but once I figured out that it was missing the gas cylinder collar and got one, it cycles reasonably well. I know its time to clean it when it starts failing to eject the odd shell. That is not the problem here.

The other night I shot roughly 50 shots through it and about 5 times, it failed to fire. The previous shell was successfully fired and ejected and I then dropped in the next shell, loaded it and pulled the trigger. The trigger "broke" as usual, but it failed to fire. It is as though it did not recock properly. I'd then open the action replace the shell and then fire again, this time successfully. Now since this was during trap shooting, I was paying more attention to the clay than how the trigger felt, so this could be a bit off.

Tonight I've cleaned the whole gun from barrel to trigger assemble and everywhere in between. The trigger assemble seems to be functioning properly. The bolt and firing pin look fine, plus the gun did fire successfully roughly 90% of the time or more, so I assume the firing pin is ok.

I expect to shoot again next week and am hoping for a full recovery with just a good cleaning, however I was wondering if anyone has ever had this sort of problem. I'll report after my next session shooting.

Thanks in advance for any advice.
 
If the trigger broke as usual, and you heard the hammer fall, it could just be dirty. Was there a mark/dent in the primer? Usual looking as to depth etc? If the primer looks like fired ones, maybe bad ammo. What brand of ammo were you using? If your next round goes 100% dirty bolt etc was the culprit. Let us know.
 
agree. you might also note the wear on your firing pin. And certainly try some different ammo before attempting any work or mods to the gun.
 
I don't think it was bad ammo, although it was the cheapest winchester ammo. I think it may have been a dirty bolt. I should have checked the primer, if it happens again I will. Thanks for the advice. I'll let you know after I try it out again.
 
Just a thought, which probably isn't the case at all, but were you riding the bolt at all? Being that the gun was dirty, maybe the bolt wasn't fully in the battery position, or in other words not fully forward, but just enough forward to disengage the sear when you pressed the trigger. Again, I don't know if it's even possible as I've never had any issues with either 1100s or 1187s.
 
aghoover said:
I don't think it was bad ammo, although it was the cheapest winchester ammo. I think it may have been a dirty bolt. I should have checked the primer, if it happens again I will. Thanks for the advice. I'll let you know after I try it out again.
Click to expand...

Also check the firing pin spring... had a similar issue with a gun and the spring was broke. I didnt notice it until I took it apart and the spring was in 3 pieces.
 
Sounds like a dirty bolt / receiver / chamber issue to me. If it starts happening again (after a few boxes of shells - not when it is shiny clean) and you are shooting trap, look carefully at the bolt before each shot (oops, wait a minute, were you shooting doubles and it was only happening on the second shot?) and make sure it is fully forward.
 
Ok, so I cleaned it and shot a few rounds last night. The first 50 shots or so we fine, then I had a 1 or 2 episodes intermittently, then it was more frequent. I was paying more attention and to what exactly was happening. Again the trigger broke as it was supposed to. Before the shot, I'd peek inside the little slit on the side and it appeared as thought the hammer was in place, ready to fire. After the miss fire, I pulled out the shell and there was a slight indent on the primer, so the firing pin hit the primer, just not hard enough to fire.

When I did clean it, the spring looked like it was intact. I was shooting singles trap, I don't think doubles would have made a difference, it cycles reasonably well, just doesn't fully strike the primer from time to time.

So I'm going to clean it again and see whats up. Any tips on how to clean and lubricate the bolt/firing pin. Also, I choose to add no lub, just dried after cleaning. I'm looking at getting some break free cleaner. Any thoughts.

Thanks again for the help.
 
I would just take it all apart, right down to the nuts and bolts, including the return or recoil spring, and soak everything in varsol. Also check the firing pin and firing pin spring for any defects.
 
Yes, besides a good bolt cleaning, make sure you take the return spring out of the stock and give it and the tube a good cleaning. It could even be the spring is getting weak. I know guys who replace the spring every once in awhile if shooting the gun lots. And as this is a used gun, who knows how much it was shot. Also make sure there is no crud in the area of where the spring comes through the stock.
 
Looking forward to finding the fix in this case. I had the same problem with my 11-87 a few years ago, and never figured it out. Just parked the gun an bought a SBE II. I tried new o-rings and collars and cleaned everything, even took it to a smith and the problem never went away.
Same thing, fires the first shell, cycles properly and seems to close all the way. The next trigger pull goes click, but the primer doesn't get hit hard enough. Didn't matter what kind of ammo.
 
Does anyone have a link showing how to disassemble the bolt itself. Same with the return spring. I don't think that is the problem, but it wouldn't hurt to clean that too.
 
aghoover said:
Does anyone have a link showing how to disassemble the bolt itself. Same with the return spring. I don't think that is the problem, but it wouldn't hurt to clean that too.
Click to expand...

I don't know about the bolt but the return spring is fairly easy. If memory serves me correctly, remove the recoil pad and there is a nut you have to undo (can't remember size). I believe there is a cap with a pin through it. Push the pin out and remove the spring. I know I have read on other forums where the return spring has caused a lot of cycling/no fire problems. Many who own these guns don't even realize the spring is in the stock so pay no attention to it. It may not be your problem but it should be checked and cleaned anyhow.
 
Well I'm cleaning up the bolt some more and I am going to lubricate the pin. The spring looks in tact, just a little dirty. When I get home after shooting today, I'm going to try and take the bolt apart. It looks like there is a pin on the back end of the bolt. Once removed, does the firing pin and everything else just fall out?

Also, what level of lubrication do you apply to the different parts of your gun. I read on the interwebs anywhere from no lubrication to automatic transmission fluid on the magazine and elsewhere.

Thanks for the input so far.
 
aghoover;6045887 It looks like there is a pin on the back end of the bolt. Once removed said:
yes
drive retaining pin out sideways, firing pin and spring will fall out towards the rear.
im expecting that the spring is broken and has wound into itself
Click to expand...
 
So after a quick cleaning with some hoppes #9 and then a light lub, the gun functioned flawlessly for 50 rounds. One poor ejection, but that is ok. The gun fired everytime. I'm going to take the bolt apart and do a very thorough cleaning. The spring looks intact although it looks compressed in the middle for several mms. I'll keep you posted.
 
So first, I should not be a gun smith. I didn't try too much because I didn't want to break my gun, but I could not get that retaining pin out of the bolt. I guess I should buy the proper tools to do this. So I instead did my best to clean things up and inspect all the visible parts. To me, the spring looks good and in 1 piece. Once everything was cleaned, I lightly lubed all the moving parts with Hoppes gun lube and wiped it down. I also thoroughly cleaned the whole gun safe the recoil spring in the stock. Taking the recoil pad off seems like quite the process so if I can fix it without removing said spring, that would be nice. To do that, I guess I just use a narrow screw driver to unscrew the recoil pad and it should just come off?

Last Wednesday I successfully fired 50 rounds of target load without a problem. Tonight I will be firing another 50 rounds. Hopefully all will go well.

So far I am happy with this gun. I have had it for 3 years now. It has provided a number of problem solving opportunities. It gets the job done. My buddy just bought a new Beretta Urika. I seems to have zero problems. However it was twice the price and I actually don't like the way it feels when it fires, but I think that is just because I am used to my gun.

Again, thanks for the input. Hopefully I will have it running perfectly for goose season.
 
Aghoover

Two things come to mind. First you say that the firing pin spring looks compressed for several mms. Years ago my 1100 trap broke a firing pin spring. The gun worked most of the time and the spring looked as you described. The spring had broken and "threaded" into itself over the firing pin. It really didn't look broken. I would take the bolt to a gunsmith and have him replace the spring. It should take only a few minutes to do this.

Second is cleaning the recoil spring in the stock. It's not hard at all. First use a Phillips screwdriver to unscrew the two screw holding on the recoil pad. Lubricate the shaft of the screwdriver with Vaseline or such to help prevent damage to the recoil pad. Next undo the big nut. A large screwdriver can work, but a spade wood bit with the point removed or a drag link socket and a ratchet are better choices. Slide the stock off and note how the two washers are in there. Clean that spring and tube. You'll probably be amazed at how dirty it is.

John
 
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