The 147 grain 9mm subsonic was developed for the MP5 as used by SEALs in the US. The bullet they used has a longer bearing surface and is supposed to be match grade. The fact that it was subsonic was pretty much irrelevant in an MP5 SD, since all bullets leaving the SD are subsonic. Likewise the fact that it was a hollow point didn't matter for the expected reason either - it allowed the bullet the aforementioned longer bearing surface - it's terminal performance didn't improve on the 115 ball they had been using. The round was developed solely for accuracy in one version of one gun.
115, 124, 147gr. Oh My!
- Thread starter RobertJohnston
- Start date
Well 147gr shoot quite accurately from my PCC, so I'm sticking to them. I set the thing up for 147gr such that it cycles reliably, which it may not with lighter bullets. And I figure why bother shooting lighter bullets which just get tossed around more by wind anyway?
Hypothetically. I've only shot mine to 100 yards, and not in a strong wind. But a bullet is a bullet, and if .22lr, with similar ballistics to 9mm (average BC of 0.1690 compared to 0.1650 and very similar drop at 100, within an inch) is affected by wind, so is 9mm. Just one of several factors I considered when standardizing on 147gr for my carbine, the more important ones having to do with cycling and terminal performance, and of course the subsonic nature of the round eliminating the *crack* to which I am quite sensitive. bloody ears...
From airgunning I learned that I get slightly better accuracy out of heavier pellets. With one rifle, 18gr just nails it every time, where 13.4gr opens up a bit, 15.89gr showing up close to 18gr but not quite as small groups when I go past 50 yards and there's any breeze at all. I tend to think of .22lr and 9mm more like I do pellets. Heck, I see this with 6.5CM, loads and loads of reports from a bunch of different forums where people get their nicest groups using factory ammo with 140gr, so that's what I standardized on for my Sig Cross. Sure 123gr is zippy, but it gets tossed around more in wind. Very different distances involved, but wind is wind, and bullets are affected by it.
From airgunning I learned that I get slightly better accuracy out of heavier pellets. With one rifle, 18gr just nails it every time, where 13.4gr opens up a bit, 15.89gr showing up close to 18gr but not quite as small groups when I go past 50 yards and there's any breeze at all. I tend to think of .22lr and 9mm more like I do pellets. Heck, I see this with 6.5CM, loads and loads of reports from a bunch of different forums where people get their nicest groups using factory ammo with 140gr, so that's what I standardized on for my Sig Cross. Sure 123gr is zippy, but it gets tossed around more in wind. Very different distances involved, but wind is wind, and bullets are affected by it.
No need to defend your choice. A silly write-up based on one particular 147 load is pretty meaningless anyway. I am a big fan of 147grn but the price is almost always significantly more so it's not something I stock these days. I have been buying a lot of Winchester 124grn 9mm NATO ammunition lately. It's clean, consistent and shoots as well as anything. Price is ok given the current nonsense. I plan to cast 20,000 or so 124 RN bullets soon to cover my backyard shooting needs. I try not to overthink things. 9mm isn't too complicated, you don't need 1'' at 100m. If you do you are using the wrong cartridge.
A lot of presumptions there, based on personal preferences, not facts.
I see so much of this sort of talk about 9mm being an inherently imprecise cartridge and therefore accuracy isn't even a consideration. It's a bullet. A longer, heavier bullet in a given subsonic cartridge tends to deliver better precision and ballistic performance generally, provided it is well stabilized by the barrel's twist rate, quality of the barrel, and precision of the barrel crown.
Yes, there are LOTS of people who use 9mm for shooting big steel plates or cardboard cutouts shaped like a man's torso and head at ranges between 3 and 50 yards. I don't much care, as that style of shooting doesn't hold any interest for me. I can hit such targets reliably with a pistol, so why would I care what a carbine can do at the same ranges on such huge targets? That's my preference, a personal perspective, just as your statements about what's adequate for your shooting preferences and not overthinking things are about your personal preference and perspective. Your "backyard shooting needs" do not define anyone else's needs, just as I'm not pretending to have any authority over your preferences when I talk about mine. Individuality. Choice. They're actual things.
Similarly, a lot of people think of .22lr as an unserious, primarily plinking cartridge. Yet there are many who take the cartridge seriously enough that they shoot it competitively at 100 yards, or at Olympic events, etc, some consistently delivering groups not much larger than the bullet itself. I've not seen such shooting with 9mm, for whatever reasons I can only guess at. But I've been able to shoot better than 1.5MOA at 100 yards with my PCC at least on one outing, though shooting from a bipod rested on my backpack on an awkward slope... I don't get out shooting much. While I'd never make the silly claim that 9mm is a good choice for precision target shooting, to claim the opposite seems a faulty position as well. 9mm from a tilting-barrel pistol is obviously not intended for precision shooting, but look at the Laugo Alien. 1" slow fire groups at 10 metres aren't difficult with this fixed-barrel pistol in the hands of a good pistol shooter, and the inherent precision of the barrel goes much beyond that if shot rested or in a vise. And the Alien is hardly alone. Many Lugers of 100 years ago are capable of extraordinary accuracy.
And the fuddlore goes on and on with 9mm, like the never-ending nonsense about how it's insufficiently powerful for real consideration as a defensive cartridge, though it prevails globally among police and military organizations for exactly that type of use. Ranging between 350fpe and over 500fpe depending on loading, that's triple a typical .22lr SV bullet, and many a deer has been (legitimately or illicitly) taken with .22lr. Not arguing 9mm is a hunting cartridge, just saying it's not a trivially weak one.
As for me having "no need to defend my choice" - did you bother looking just above my post at the legitimate question from 'old303'? He asked, I answered. How is this a 'B *' problem?
Thanks! I'd only had centrefire pistol rounds out to 50 m so far, but consider me challenged to take it out to 100 and see how accurate I can get.
As with a lot of shooters, I've pushed .22LR to learn how to deal with ballistics, but I'd only considered centrefire rifle for really reaching out and hadn't pushed pistol or shotgun very far.
As with a lot of shooters, I've pushed .22LR to learn how to deal with ballistics, but I'd only considered centrefire rifle for really reaching out and hadn't pushed pistol or shotgun very far.
