12(5) list of prohibited firearms

SRSA311

SRSA311

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I am trying to find a list of firearms in the 12.5 group. I have tried the RCMP site and just seem to go around in circles. Does anyone have a link to an up to date list?
Thanks!
SRSA311
 
Since the RCMP site has taken the list down to supposedly "update" the fact sheet, an alternate place to find the list is here:

http://www.canfirearms.ca/Skeeter/Gov/OICs.txt

Here's the list of firearms under 12(5).

1. This Order may be cited as the Prohibited Weapons Order, No. 13.

DECLARATION

2. The following weapons are hereby declared to be prohibited
weapons:

(a) the firearm of the design commonly known as the AK-47 rifle, and
any variant or modified version thereof, including the

(i) AK-74,

(ii) AK Hunter,

(iii) AKM,

(iv) AKM-63,

(v) AKS-56S,

(vi) AKS-56S-1,

(vii) AKS-56S-2,

(viii) AKS-74,

(ix) AKS-84S-1,

(x) AMD-65,

(xi) AR Model .223,

(xii) Dragunov,

(xiii) Galil,

(xiv) KKMPi69,

(xv) M60,

(xvi) M62,

(xvii) M70B1,

(xviii) M70AB2,

(xix) M76,

(xx) M77B1,

(xxi) M78,

(xxii) M80,

(xxiii) M80A,

(xxiv) MAK90,

(xxv) MPiK,

(xxvi) MPiKM,

(xxvii) MPiKMS-72,

(xxviii) MPiKS,

(xxix) PKM,

(###) PKM-DGN-60,

(###i) PMKM,

(###ii) RPK,

(###iii) RPK-74,

(###iv) RPK-87S,

(###v) Type 56,

(###vi) Type 56-1,

(###vii) Type 56-2,

(###viii) Type 56-3,

(###ix) Type 56-4,

(xl) Type 68,

(xli) Type 79,

(xlii) American Arms AKY39,

(xliii) American Arms AKF39,

(xliv) American Arms AKC47,

(xlv) American Arms AKF47,

(xlvi) MAM70WS762,

(xlvii) MAM70FS762,

(xlviii) Mitchell AK-22,

(xlix) Mitchell AK-47,

(l) Mitchell Heavy Barrel AK-47,

(li) Norinco 84S,

(lii) Norinco 84S AK,

(liii) Norinco 56,

(liv) Norinco 56-1,

(lv) Norinco 56-2,

(lvi) Norinco 56-3,

(lvii) Norinco 56-4,

(lviii) Poly Technologies Inc. AK-47/S,

(lix) Poly Technologies Inc. AKS-47/S,

(lx) Poly Technologies Inc. AKS-762,

(lxi) Valmet Hunter,

(lxii) Valmet M76,

(lxiii) Valmet M76 carbine,

(lxiv) Valmet M78,

(lxv) Valmet M78/A2,

(lxvi) Valmet M78 (NATO) LMG,

(lxvii) Valmet M82, and

(lxviii) Valmet M82 Bullpup;

(b) the firearm of the design commonly known as the Armalite
AR-180 Sporter carbine, and any variant or modified version thereof;

(c) the firearm of the design commonly known as the Beretta AR70
assault rifle, and any variant or modified version thereof;

(d) the firearm of the design commonly known as the BM 59 rifle, and
any variant or modified version thereof, including

(i) the Beretta

(A) BM 59,

(B) BM 59R,

(C) BM 59GL,

(D) BM 59D,

(E) BM 59 Mk E,

(F) BM 59 Mk I,

(G) BM 59 Mk Ital,

(H) BM 59 Mk II,

(I) BM 59 Mk III,

(J) BM 59 Mk Ital TA,

(K) BM 59 Mk Ital Para,

(L) BM 59 Mk Ital TP, and

(M) BM 60CB, and

(ii) the Springfield Armory

(A) BM 59 Alpine,

(B) BM 59 Alpine Paratrooper, and

(C) BM 59 Nigerian Mk IV;

(e) the firearm of the design commonly known as the Bushmaster
Auto Rifle, and any variant or modified version thereof;

(f) the firearm of the design commonly known as the Cetme Sport
Auto Rifle, and any variant or modified version thereof;

(g) the firearm of the design commonly known as the Daewoo Kl rifle,
and any variant or modified version thereof, including the Daewoo
K1A1, K2, Max 1, Max 2, AR-100, AR 110C, MAXI-II and KC-20;

(h) the firearm of the design commonly known as the Demro TAC-1M
carbine, and any variant or modified version thereof, including the
Demro XF-7 Wasp Carbine;

(i) the firearm of the design commonly known as the Eagle Apache
Carbine, and any variant or modified version thereof;

(j) the firearm of the design commonly known as the FN-FNC rifle,
and any variant or modified version thereof, including the FNC Auto
Rifle, FNC Auto Paratrooper, FNC-11, FNC-22 and FNC-33;

(k) the firearm of the design commonly known as the FN-FAL
(FN-LAR) rifle, and any variant or modified version thereof, including
the FN 308 Model 44, FN-FAL (FN-LAR) Competition Auto, FN-FAL
(FN-LAR) Heavy Barrel 308 Match, FN-FAL (FN-LAR) Paratrooper
308 Match 50-64 and FN 308 Model 50-63;

(l) the firearm of the design commonly known as the G3 rifle, and any
variant or modified version thereof, including the Heckler and Koch

(i) HK 91,

(ii) HK 91A2,

(iii) HK 91A3,

(iv) HK G3 A3,

(v) HK G3 A3 ZF,

(vi) HK G3 A4,

(vii) HK G3 SG/1, and

(viii) HK PSG1;

(m) the firearm of the design commonly known as the Galil assault
rifle, and any variant or modified version thereof, including the AP-84,
Galil ARM, Galil AR, Galil SAR, Galil 332 and Mitchell Galil/22 Auto
Rifle;

(n) the firearm of the design commonly known as the Goncz
High-Tech Carbine, and any variant or modified version thereof;

(o) the firearm of the design commonly known as the Heckler and
Koch HK 33 rifle, and any variant or modified version thereof,
including the

(i) HK 33A2,

(ii) HK 33A3,

(iii) HK 33KA1,

(iv) HK 93,

(v) HK 93A2, and

(vi) HK 93A3;

(p) the firearm of the design commonly known as the J & R Eng M-68
carbine, and any variant or modified version thereof, including the
PJK M-68 and the Wilkinson Terry carbine;

(q) the firearm of the design commonly known as the Leader Mark
Series Auto Rifle, and any variant or modified version thereof;

(r) the firearms of the designs commonly known as the MP5
submachine gun and MP5 carbine, and any variants or modified
versions thereof, including the Heckler and Koch

(i) HK MP5,

(ii) HK MP5A2,

(iii) HK MP5A3,

(iv) HK MP5K,

(v) HK MP5SD,

(vi) HK MP5SD1,

(vii) HK MP5SD2,

(viii) HK MP5SD3,

(ix) HK 94,

(x) HK 94A2, and

(xi) HK 94A3;

(s) the firearm of the design commonly known as the PE57 rifle, and
any variant or modified version thereof;

(t) the firearms of the designs commonly known as the SG-550 rifle
and SG-551 carbine, and any variants or modified versions thereof;

(u) the firearm of the design commonly known as the SIG AMT rifle,
and any variant or modified version thereof;

(v) the firearm of the design commonly known as the Springfield
Armory SAR-48 rifle, and any variant or modified version thereof,
including the SAR-48 Bush, SAR-48 Heavy Barrel, SAR-48 Para and
SAR-48 Model 22; and

(w) the firearm of the design commonly known as the Thompson
submachine gun, and any variant or modified version thereof,
including the

(i) Thompson Model 1921,

(ii) Thompson Model 1927,

(iii) Thompson Model 1928,

(iv) Thompson Model M1,

(v) Auto-Ordnance M27A-1,

(vi) Auto-Ordnance M27A-1 Deluxe,

(vii) Auto-Ordnance M1927A-3,

(viii) Auto-Ordnance M1927A-5,

(ix) Auto-Ordnance Thompson M1,

(x) Commando Arms Mk I,

(xi) Commando Arms Mk II,

(xii) Commando Arms Mk III,

(xiii) Commando Arms Mk 9, and

(xiv) Commando Arms Mk 45.
Click to expand...
 
I believe that these firearms are 12(3), so called converted auto's plus other bad guns. Like the Dragunov sniper rifle. 12(5) includes the likes of FN L1A1, the FN's that were "never select fire". Or should I say not deemed select fire. I don't understand how they divided these up. I don't think that anyone really does. That's what makes it so hard to figure out which is what.
SRSA311
 
SRSA311 said:
I believe that these firearms are 12(3), so called converted auto's plus other bad guns. Like the Dragunov sniper rifle. 12(5) includes the likes of FN L1A1, the FN's that were "never select fire". Or should I say not deemed select fire. I don't understand how they divided these up. I don't think that anyone really does. That's what makes it so hard to figure out which is what.
SRSA311
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No, that is indeed the list for 12(5), as that particular category is comprised of everything listed in Prohibited Weapons Order 13.
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/F-11.6/FullText.html
(5) An individual is eligible to hold a licence authorizing the individual to possess firearms that were declared to be prohibited weapons under the former Act by the Prohibited Weapons Order, No. 13, made by Order in Council P.C. 1994-1974 of November 29, 1994 and registered as SOR/94-741 and that, on January 1, 1995, either were registered as restricted weapons under the former Act or were the subject of an application for a registration certificate under the former Act if the individual
  • (a) before January 1, 1995 possessed one or more firearms that were so declared;
  • (b) on the commencement day held a registration certificate under the former Act for one or more firearms that were so declared; and
  • (c) beginning on the commencement day was continuously the holder of a registration certificate for one or more firearms that were so declared.
Click to expand...

There was no "banned by name" list for 12(3), as it prohibits firearms simply by the virtue of being converted autos (a supposed catch-all category), so there was no need for a list.
 
can anyone here PLEASE explain to me how does these numbers works / stand for :

12(3) / 12(5) / 12(6) .. anymore numbers???? firearms class????

i hope they will review their prohibited list one day because canadian laws are so stupid..
 
12(2) = Select fire or full auto (unmodified Bren guns for example)

12(3) = Converted Auto (i.e. select fire rifle or machine gun modified by a gunsmith to be semi-auto only)

12(4) = a list of semi-auto rifles and carbines, generally smaller in size (Styer AUG, UZI, H&K-94)

12(5) = a list of semi-auto rifles and carbines, generally larger in size (FN FAL, H&K-91 etc)

12(6) = short barreled pistols and/or .32 and .25 pistols.

12(7) = same as 12(6), obtained as an inheritance (originally meant to cover war bring-backs)

There are some that may fall into more than one category. An FN FAL can be 12(2), 12(3) or 12(5) depending on if it is/was capable of select fire. What is irritating to collectors like me is that if you don't have grandfathering for a particular class you can't get it despite having another.

For example, I have 12(5), and own several FNs in that class, but most of the ones I need to round out my collection are 12(3), which I am not allowed to own, even though a rifle from either list is capable of semi-auto fire only. Likewise, someone with a 12(2) (FULL AUTO!) license can't buy one of my semi-auto only 12(5) rifles unless he also has a 12(5) license. It all depended on what you owned on the cutoff date.
 
So;
On the above list I see 1928 Tommy gun.
This would be full auto or converted.
Fore SURE manufactured as full auto capable firearm.
Is that not 12.2 or 12.3?
SRSA311
 
The 12.4 and 12.5 list is a list of utter stupidity and makes my blood boil like no ones business.

F*ck the 12.2. 12.3, 12.6, 12.7 sections of the Act as well. Utter crap written by weak bladdered fear mongers.
 
SRSA311 said:
So;
On the above list I see 1928 Tommy gun.
This would be full auto or converted.
Fore SURE manufactured as full auto capable firearm.
Is that not 12.2 or 12.3?
SRSA311
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You have to realise that these lists were drafted up by complete and utter morons who can't even tell their @$$hole from their elbow. Look at the restricted list for another example - not only do they mention the M-16 (which would be covered under 12.2 or 12.3), but they also state the AR-15 is a variant of the M-16, despite the fact that the AR-15 came first.
 
I have no argument as to the level of grey matter or lack there of used to come up with these lists. My point is I KNOW that there are firearms mentioned on this list that are NOT 12.5. I KNOW that you cannot buy an M60 with a 12.5 licence. I wish you could, but you can't. Therefore this is not a list of 12.5 firearms. Also is listed the AR15 which is restricted, not prohibited.
SRSA311
 
SRSA311 said:
I have no argument as to the level of grey matter or lack there of used to come up with these lists. My point is I KNOW that there are firearms mentioned on this list that are NOT 12.5. I KNOW that you cannot buy an M60 with a 12.5 licence. I wish you could, but you can't. Therefore this is not a list of 12.5 firearms. Also is listed the AR15 which is restricted, not prohibited.
SRSA311
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i've argued this point many times on here, and still get the wrong answers. there are rifles from all "12x" classes listed here. maybe all the 12/5 guys should list their guns and we can figure it out ourselves.
 
SRSA311 said:
I have no argument as to the level of grey matter or lack there of used to come up with these lists. My point is I KNOW that there are firearms mentioned on this list that are NOT 12.5. I KNOW that you cannot buy an M60 with a 12.5 licence. I wish you could, but you can't. Therefore this is not a list of 12.5 firearms. Also is listed the AR15 which is restricted, not prohibited.
SRSA311
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Unfortunately, you are not going to find a complete list of every single model of each design that is 12(5). This is the closest you are going to get (even though it erroneously has full/converted autos named on it), since they also threw the little "variant" clause onto every listing. The most that can be done is take note that those designs are prohibited by name under that particular prohibited weapons order, so any variants that were built as semi autos only from the factory should be 12(5).

[EDIT: albayo makes a very good point below, one that I didn't think of when I originally made this post - the FRT files are a way (and really the only way) of finding out every single 12(5) variant]

And regarding the AR-15, it is listed on that link under the restricted weapons section, not the prohibited weapons sections.
 
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In order to figure out the uncommon models you would have to go to the FRT files.
That list Fnrob shows most of the prohibited list without separating them into their categories.
A 1928 Thompson can be 12-2 full auto or 12-3 converted auto.

I was in a situation where the NB, CPFO asked me to look at a 12-2, 1928 Thompson. It was a beautiful gun.
A gentleman purchased one and thought he could own it because he had guns on that list.
I had to verify the firearm and let the CPFO and Ottawa know what I saw, and also sent the pictures. I like military firearms and have a good library on many models. I explained the classes of firearms to the gentleman, and he understood how he made the mistake.
The previous owner didn't want it back, or give the buyer his money back, and the buyer couldn't keep it.
I was asked by and approved by all parties, to found a good home for the gun, I did and everyone was satisfied. Saved a piece of history, it felt pretty good.
It was all caused by that D*m list.
I wish they would stick the 12 classes, and go back to the way things use to be.
 
albayo said:
In order to figure out the uncommon models you would have to go to the FRT files.
That list Fnrob shows most of the prohibited list without separating them into their categories.
A 1928 Thompson can be 12-2 full auto or 12-3 converted auto.
Click to expand...

Agreed. And that's the problem - the gun banners were too lazy, stupid, and/or incompetent to do the proper research when they drafted that OIC list, which is why they ended up listing firearm models that could only be 12(2) or 12(3) on the 12(5) list. So even though this is the government's "official" list for 12(5) (the firearms act even states as much), a person would have to do like you suggested, and access the FRT files to weed out the mistakes they made on that list to find out every single variant that was made 12(5).

And kudos for saving that Thompson. They truly are a beautiful gun.
 
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