12 as a good bear protection shell??

170 grn would work, but I'd say a 444 or 45-70 would work better. Particularly with a good quality bullet. A 30-30 is workable, but might not get you out of a worst case scenario. A 300 grn bullet out of a 45-70 really has authority when you decide the threat is great enough to require terminal force.
I've got a 375 H&H improved that weighs 12.5lbs if you like... Not really a mountain gun, but shoots a 300 grn partition @ 2750FPS. Geez, I get tired just thinking of packing that gun around.

JT.
 
Bears

Fisheries in BC use 870's with magazine extensions when they are travelling salmon rivers in the fall.They rarely have grizzly problems,but they load with slug/buckshot/slug/ buckshot etc., in case they do.They use slings for their 870,s so both hands are free.I've seen lots of grizzlies without any problems,but these guys see a LOT more than I do,and once in a while they need the gun. Mur
 
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What I don't understand is why the buck? If you are shooting in self defense, isn't it safe to assume that you are shooting head on? You have to be able to penetrate the heart/lung area possibly through its face/head/neck. A slug is what it takes to penetrate, so why the buck? I would load all slugs for bears.

If you wanna see horrifically wounded annimals that the hunter has lost, use buckshot on deer. You gotta be awefully close, and it is almost never bang flop unless you were riding it as you shot it. On a bear where its gotta be bang flop, it should be all slugs.

I also disagree with the rock salt. If it is time to shoot, shoot to kill. If you wanna scare it, you don't need to shoot at all. Just slowly back away until you are safe, or it is dead.

Also regarding the comments about being in bear country and not needing a gun. You are right, you don't 99% of the time. But that one time you needed it and didn't is a real #####. Every year I read about some poor unarmed jogger/cyclist/camper/hicker who gets mauled.

You prep 100% of the time for the event that will hopefully never happen. If you're going into bear country, going in armed is the responsible thing to do, unless you value bears more than youself and your companions.
 
drvrage said:
What I don't understand is why the buck? If you are shooting in self defense, isn't it safe to assume that you are shooting head on? You have to be able to penetrate the heart/lung area possibly through its face/head/neck. A slug is what it takes to penetrate, so why the buck? I would load all slugs for bears.

If you wanna see horrifically wounded annimals that the hunter has lost, use buckshot on deer. You gotta be awefully close, and it is almost never bang flop unless you were riding it as you shot it. On a bear where its gotta be bang flop, it should be all slugs.

I also disagree with the rock salt. If it is time to shoot, shoot to kill. If you wanna scare it, you don't need to shoot at all. Just slowly back away until you are safe, or it is dead.

Also regarding the comments about being in bear country and not needing a gun. You are right, you don't 99% of the time. But that one time you needed it and didn't is a real #####. Every year I read about some poor unarmed jogger/cyclist/camper/hicker who gets mauled.

You prep 100% of the time for the event that will hopefully never happen. If you're going into bear country, going in armed is the responsible thing to do, unless you value bears more than youself and your companions.
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from your comments its sounds like you have zero bear experience!

the buck shot is a stuning round. by that i mean that it gets the bears attention and makes it think damn that kinda hurt. most people dont want to kill a bear unless there is NO choice. thats why your next shot is the slug, so if the bear in question keeps on coming, your ready with some stoping power.

now when i was a hunting guide in s.e.bc in grizz country. we had 2 options for bear/ camp defence a .45-70 or a 12 ga semi. it was an even split for the 2 .

now the head on thing... most bears do charge but thats before they attack. they also rear up on their back legs making a huge toreso target.

my 2c's
 
coolhandluke said:
from your comments its sounds like you have zero bear experience!

the buck shot is a stuning round. by that i mean that it gets the bears attention and makes it think damn that kinda hurt. most people dont want to kill a bear unless there is NO choice. thats why your next shot is the slug, so if the bear in question keeps on coming, your ready with some stoping power.

now when i was a hunting guide in s.e.bc in grizz country. we had 2 options for bear/ camp defence a .45-70 or a 12 ga semi. it was an even split for the 2 .

now the head on thing... most bears do charge but thats before they attack. they also rear up on their back legs making a huge toreso target.

my 2c's
Click to expand...

So, in your infinite wisdom, wounding a bear is better than killing a bear in a defense situation...Who did you guide for PETA?
 
coolhandluke said:
from your comments its sounds like you have zero bear experience!

the buck shot is a stuning round. by that i mean that it gets the bears attention and makes it think damn that kinda hurt. most people dont want to kill a bear unless there is NO choice. thats why your next shot is the slug, so if the bear in question keeps on coming, your ready with some stoping power.

now when i was a hunting guide in s.e.bc in grizz country. we had 2 options for bear/ camp defence a .45-70 or a 12 ga semi. it was an even split for the 2 .

now the head on thing... most bears do charge but thats before they attack. they also rear up on their back legs making a huge toreso target.

my 2c's
Click to expand...


Funny I was going to say the same thing about you. The most important principle of self defense is "if you shoot, shoot to kill". Military, LEO, security, home defenders and yes even guides are trained oin this principle. Why you do not know it I'm a little unsure of.

When you speak of a "stunning shot", it prooves to me that you are not a very good guide from a bear defence point of view and I'll have no part in your services. If your point is to maim the bear, but not kill it, again I question your abilities as a guide. Self defense is a black and white scenario. Either your life was in danger in wich case the bear dies, or you were not in danger so you leave. If you articificially make a grey area you are putting yourself, your client and the bear in a very bad posiiton and are needlessly risking the lives of all three.

If I didn't need to shoot, I'll just leave the area. If the bear charges, even if it is a false charge, once it is in range I'm going to drop that sucker dead. Slug slug slug just to be sure. If the bear is standing on their hind legs, I'm probably not in a position to shoot it. I'll just back away, if possible. Even if it is standing, if it is close enough to me that I'll only get one shot, I'll take it rather than wait for the bear to close what little distance I have.

Your carrying of buckshot assumes that you'll get another shot if need be. Again as you say yoru a guide, I'm suprised by this. You've never yourself, or your client or heard stories from other guides about people walking right up on a bear and not know it? They do not magically appear 100 yards away from you all the time. That first shot might be your only one. Self defence never includes warning shots.

I need to know what outfitter your work for/worked for so I know to avoid them at all cost.
 
do you know what a wound bear does?? i do, they make tracks to a creek or river and pack thier wounds full of mud! and yea id rather wound a bear then kill it.! mostly for the fish and wild life b.s that goes along with killing a bear out of season. if i can save my self and not kill a bear buy shooting it with 00 buck. i will!

and ummm i think peta would be against any hunting guide! oh and for the record it was Goldcreek outfitters!
 
Coolhand...
Intentionally wounding any animal is un-ethical.
Intentionally wounding a large predator is un-ethical, and foolish.
I assume you've gone into the bush after a wounded bear. Would you want your wife and kids along for the walk? What happens if a family had decided to camp beside the creek or river that your wounded, angry bear is heading to?
Really irreisponsible.
 
coolhandluke said:
do you know what a wound bear does?? i do, they make tracks to a creek or river and pack thier wounds full of mud! and yea id rather wound a bear then kill it.! mostly for the fish and wild life b.s that goes along with killing a bear out of season. if i can save my self and not kill a bear buy shooting it with 00 buck. i will!

and ummm i think peta would be against any hunting guide! oh and for the record it was Goldcreek outfitters!
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WTF!:wave:
 
Use slugs. Buckshot will kill the hell out of a bear with a close range head shot, but slugs work close and far.

I have no fricking clue why someone would want to "stun" or "wound" a bear that charges you. You aren't "saving" a bear, you are dooming it to a slow lingering death from infection or crippling an animal if it lives, which coudl cause more problems for other humans down the road.

Bears that rear up on their hind legs are trying to get a sniff of you, or a better look. It's not necessarily an aggressive action. Anyone shooting a bear standing up like that is most likely shooting a bear without cause, making a rookie mistake.
 
Wounding a bear is not smart at all, I was charged by a bear last year that had a arrow stuck in it and i think he would have been more scared than pissed off if he wasn't wounded.
 
If I am packing a 12g for the purpose of protection from bears, etc, I would stuff it full of Brenneke BM or similar that I have practiced with and trust will do the job in the unlikely event that I would need to. That being said, I am fortunate to travel in parts where the bears have been hunted by humans and will generally bolt when they hear you or get a sniff of you.
Now what about defense from a cougar? The first sign that you are being attacked is generally a 150+lb cat landing on your back, driving you into the ground while trying to bite through your skull. Buckshot vs. Slugs becomes moot.
 
Wild_Thing said:
Now what about defense from a cougar? The first sign that you are being attacked is generally a 150+lb cat landing on your back, driving you into the ground while trying to bite through your skull. Buckshot vs. Slugs becomes moot.
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When the muzzle is touching the target, everything coming out of a shotgun is much like a slug :D
 
Wild_Thing said:
If I am packing a 12g for the purpose of protection from bears, etc, I would stuff it full of Brenneke BM or similar that I have practiced with and trust will do the job in the unlikely event that I would need to. That being said, I am fortunate to travel in parts where the bears have been hunted by humans and will generally bolt when they hear you or get a sniff of you.
Now what about defense from a cougar? The first sign that you are being attacked is generally a 150+lb cat landing on your back, driving you into the ground while trying to bite through your skull. Buckshot vs. Slugs becomes moot.
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Peter Capstick while guiding hunters in Africa, when tracking wounded leopards, acquired an antique leatherneck
(USMC sword guard)

I am surprized no-one has marketed a lightweight kevlar (teeth & clawproof) neckguard for woods wanderers in high number cougar country (Tofino/Ucuelet). Maybe made from the same material as knife proof vests for prison guards.

Maybe there are out there already????
Do I sound silly?
 
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