I have heard a lot of people say the 12 g shotgun can do everything the 45-70 can do only bigger and better. I was thinking range would not be as great as the 45-70 nor accuracy. Any comments?
12 g vs 45-70
- Thread starter Teapot
- Start date
- Location
- Back in the Peace Country
some say apples and oranges, some don't.
Personal preference also.
If it is big game, 45 70 wins hands down for me.
Personal preference also.
If it is big game, 45 70 wins hands down for me.
I shot some 2,100fps slugs a few months ago that might give a 45/70 a run for its money. That is if you're man enough to shoot more than a couple of them at a time. Not sure I've ever felt recoil like that before. I guess it would all depend on the weight and MV of the slug but I've seen some pretty impressive performance both in speed and accuracy out of the new slugs.....did I mention that my shoulder hurts?
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- Location
- Back in the Peace Country
I've had 3 people reload for me, and reloaded a few (at much lower pressures) myself. I have bloodied my nose as a young fella shooting slugs with a 12 gauge, but I have watched others nearly #### their pants when my 45 70 gave it's bark and bite.
Based on what kind of slug? Last time I looked there were about a hundred different 12 gauge slug configurations out there. Take a look at the Barnes Tipped Expanded for example. At 438 grains of jacketed/polymer-tipped fury are you sure the 45/70 would out penetrate it? Even at a modest 1,900 fps it delivers an unbelievable 3500 foot pounds of energy. 12 gauge slugs have entered the space age my friend. Going on sheer ballistics, the 12 gauge blows the .45/70 away in every aspect. Considering many new slug guns are capable of 1.5" or smaller groups, I'd say accuracy is comparable too. If you are talking your average 870 shooting rifled lead slugs then yes the .45/70 gets the nod but I'm more interested in peak performance!
- Location
- Back in the Peace Country
Hey Teapot,
I think 400 gr going over 2000 fps, with over 3600 ftlbs and MOA at 100 yrds, and 2 " at 175 is nice for a little extra reach.
While these are usually kept on the shelf, the garretts with 3200 ftlbs and 1850 fps is good to 200 yrds with only a 6-7 inch drop,420 grains and go through about 53 -56 inches of wet newspaper.
Now if you just want to slam a Griz , or Buffalo, throw in a 520 gr at 1550fps. Bu Bye Buffalo
I have these on the way,
430 gr. L.B.T.- L.F.N. - G.C. (1925 fps / M.E. 3537 ft. lbs.)
(Big game up to 2500 lbs. - Penetrator Load)
I think 400 gr going over 2000 fps, with over 3600 ftlbs and MOA at 100 yrds, and 2 " at 175 is nice for a little extra reach.
While these are usually kept on the shelf, the garretts with 3200 ftlbs and 1850 fps is good to 200 yrds with only a 6-7 inch drop,420 grains and go through about 53 -56 inches of wet newspaper.
Now if you just want to slam a Griz , or Buffalo, throw in a 520 gr at 1550fps. Bu Bye Buffalo
I have these on the way,
430 gr. L.B.T.- L.F.N. - G.C. (1925 fps / M.E. 3537 ft. lbs.)
(Big game up to 2500 lbs. - Penetrator Load)
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The penetration of the Hardcast 480 grain WFN GC at 1900 fps was at least double that of any 12 ga. tested including the Brenneke. The 45/70 load damaged the back of our phonebook test container, and exited, no 12 gauge slug made it half way. The 12 gauge slug is a good close range choice if deep penetration is not required, it takes a back seat to the 45/70 as do most calibers, when it comes to deep penetration and smashing power. Hardcast lead bullets used on Buffalo this past winter, showed bullets exiting the animal both width ways and length ways with the 685gr. 50/90 Sharps bullet. Not the kind of place for a 12 gauge shotgun.
How many jacketed/polymer tipped slugs did you test? Solid copper slugs? What velocities were you shooting the 12 gauge at...1200-1400 fps? The hard cast bullets may indeed penetrate further but I would say that is more a matter of design and construction rather than length as you suggested. I'd be quite confident the tipped Barnes expander could more than adequately do the job on a deer or buff.
BTW, I've seen buff killed with a 12 gauge...it's no big feat, but then again I've seen them topple over at 200+ yards when hit with a 165 grain 30-06. Penetration is but a very small part of killing. I've shot several domestic cows and bulls over the years with a 12 guage slug as well, and they performed admirably at a variety of ranges. The trick is not to choose a close range projectile like a Brenneke but rather use a slug designed for long-range performance. Long range in this case being sub 200 yards.
By your comments it's pretty obvious that your experience with high-tech 12 gauge slugs and rounds is very limited. It's a big world out there worth exploring.
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Poke yourself with a diabetic needle, and then a nail. I bet the diabetic needle at the same velocity punctures futher than the nail.
I tend to follow the 45-70 thinking based on what I have read / heard.
That being said I am by no means a ballistics expert.
I tend to follow the 45-70 thinking based on what I have read / heard.
That being said I am by no means a ballistics expert.
- Location
- Back in the Peace Country
"Penetration is but a very small part of killing"
But without penetration, there is no killing.
Accuracy, penetration, expansion, energy are all major factors.
Penetration is a very important one.
Even when compared to accuracy. You can be as accurate as you want, but without penetration, there is no kill.
But without penetration, there is no killing.
Accuracy, penetration, expansion, energy are all major factors.
Penetration is a very important one.
Even when compared to accuracy. You can be as accurate as you want, but without penetration, there is no kill.
- Location
- Back in the Peace Country
double tap
I have seen guys shooting .45-70 at 1000 yards and hitting paper most of the time. I have never seen anyone shooting a 12 ga. at this range.
I totally agree but something that penetrates fully and contunes 50 feet out the other side of the animal is no more deadly that something that penetrates fully and continues 5 inches out the other side of the animal. My point is, that the new slugs, not the antiquated ones that Ben was using, offer plenty of penetration to be deadly at ranges to 150 yards and more, even on bison-sized game. Remember, this is why we have bullets that expand and we don't shoot everything with FMJs....is it not?
There is a whole new world of very accurate and very deadly slugs out there for the 12 gauge. These are slugs contained in plastic sabots and are no bigger in diameter than bullets being shot from 45 and 50 cal rifles.
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So the answer is no then....thanks for clarifying that. You should check the store shelves out occassionally, there are all kinds of innovations out there.
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Poke yourself with a diabetic needle, and then a nail. I bet the diabetic needle at the same velocity punctures futher than the nail.
I tend to follow the 45-70 thinking based on what I have read / heard.
That being said I am by no means a ballistics expert.
So what if the 45/70 and the 12 gauge have the same diameter projectile? These aren't the antiquated slugs of your youth but super high tech jacketed bullets wrapped in a plastic sabout being fired down a rifled barrel.
Imagine this going 1900 fps out of a 12 gauge and tell me it's not deadly to 200 yards.....
Winchester also has a 300 grain slug doing 2100 fps.........this is a new age folks
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- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
The traditional 12 gauge slug comes in basically 2 flavors, the foster and the Benneke. The Brenneke produces better penetration because the slug deforms very little. The foster produces a shallow wide wound cavity due to the thin soft lead skirts which tend to flow forward at impact regardless of the particular weight, whether 437 grs or 600 grs. In certain circumstances where excessive penetration is a concern, the fosters performance is ideal, but in the majority of big game hunting conditions more penetration is better. As a result the foster can be useful against thin skin dangerous game at very close range and non-dangerous medium game out to the hunter's ability to shoot with the particular slug-gun combination. The Brenneke can be used successfully on a broad range of game out to 50 yards and out to the hunter's ability on medium game. Regardless of which slug is chosen, the range is limited by the gun, and slug accuracy out to 100 yards in many shotguns might be considered optimistic at best.
Because the Brenneke is essentially a non-expanding bullet, it would compare favorably with a powerful rifle when used within it's appropriate range. Given that modern .45/70 - .458 Winchester loads do quite well out to 300 yards, this completely out classes the traditional 12 gauge slug. But the traditional 12 bore was never intended to for extended ranges, so how does it compare up close? Certainly a .72 caliber bullet is impressive, but when we consider non-expanding bullets, SD combined with velocity provides a reasonable comparison of potential penetration, when the bullets compared are of similar construction. The 600 gr Brenneke's SD comes in at .165 and the velocity from my 590 measures about 1300 fps. A .458/500 hard cast WFN comes in at .340 with a velocity of about 2100 when loaded in a .458 bolt gun. If we multiply the slug's SD by it's velocity we get 214.5. The .458 gives us 714, so we would expect better than 3X the penetration from the rifle at the muzzle of both guns. I doubt that there is a land animal on earth that could survive a solid hit from the Brenneke at full steam, so the rifle's real advantage comes in as the range to the target increases. The penetration of the Brenneke at 100 yards is dramatically reduced although it is still effective on medium sized game, but the .458/500's ability to penetrate remains much as it was at the muzzle.
Modern 12 gauge bullets fired from rifled barrels produce acceptable accuracy out to 200 yards, but the light weight of these slugs and the mandatory low pressure loadings keep them from having much of an improved terminal effect over the traditional slug. The purpose of the wonder slugs is to provide increased range for hunters restricted to shotguns for use on deer, rather than provide a more powerful arm for heavy game. I personally doubt if the close range terminal effect of the wonder slugs is much improved over the Brenneke and on heavy game might not be as good.
If the modern slug was to be up to a powerful rifle for use on heavy game; what would it look like? Lets consider the ballistics of a rifle of similar caliber. The .700 Nitro Express fires a 1000 gr bullet at 2000 fps. If a non-expanding bullet cast bullet is chosen we have a SD of .291 X 2000 for 582 or 2.7 times the penetration of the Brenneke. Not many would choose to hunt with a rifle of this magnitude and the pressure from this monster is certainly beyond the limitations of the common 12 gauge pump gun.
Because the Brenneke is essentially a non-expanding bullet, it would compare favorably with a powerful rifle when used within it's appropriate range. Given that modern .45/70 - .458 Winchester loads do quite well out to 300 yards, this completely out classes the traditional 12 gauge slug. But the traditional 12 bore was never intended to for extended ranges, so how does it compare up close? Certainly a .72 caliber bullet is impressive, but when we consider non-expanding bullets, SD combined with velocity provides a reasonable comparison of potential penetration, when the bullets compared are of similar construction. The 600 gr Brenneke's SD comes in at .165 and the velocity from my 590 measures about 1300 fps. A .458/500 hard cast WFN comes in at .340 with a velocity of about 2100 when loaded in a .458 bolt gun. If we multiply the slug's SD by it's velocity we get 214.5. The .458 gives us 714, so we would expect better than 3X the penetration from the rifle at the muzzle of both guns. I doubt that there is a land animal on earth that could survive a solid hit from the Brenneke at full steam, so the rifle's real advantage comes in as the range to the target increases. The penetration of the Brenneke at 100 yards is dramatically reduced although it is still effective on medium sized game, but the .458/500's ability to penetrate remains much as it was at the muzzle.
Modern 12 gauge bullets fired from rifled barrels produce acceptable accuracy out to 200 yards, but the light weight of these slugs and the mandatory low pressure loadings keep them from having much of an improved terminal effect over the traditional slug. The purpose of the wonder slugs is to provide increased range for hunters restricted to shotguns for use on deer, rather than provide a more powerful arm for heavy game. I personally doubt if the close range terminal effect of the wonder slugs is much improved over the Brenneke and on heavy game might not be as good.
If the modern slug was to be up to a powerful rifle for use on heavy game; what would it look like? Lets consider the ballistics of a rifle of similar caliber. The .700 Nitro Express fires a 1000 gr bullet at 2000 fps. If a non-expanding bullet cast bullet is chosen we have a SD of .291 X 2000 for 582 or 2.7 times the penetration of the Brenneke. Not many would choose to hunt with a rifle of this magnitude and the pressure from this monster is certainly beyond the limitations of the common 12 gauge pump gun.
Boomer, while an interesting take on things, your conclusions are flawed at every step. First, you cannot compare new slugs to a 700NE as they are not the same calibre. We are shooting 45-50 calibre bullets from the 12 gauge so we should compare it to those calibres should we not?
While you Brenneke comparisons at 1,400 fps are fine but they are as antiquated as Ben's data.
Let's talk a .45 cal/300 grain bullet doing 2100 fps from a 12 gauge and then tell me it's not in the .45/70 range. Let's talk apples and apples and not bother with the obscure references to the old Foster and Brenneke slugs. While great close range defence, they are not the topic of this conversation. I'm talking a 200 yard projectile, delivered very accurately from a 12 gauge that has more than ample penetration for all North American game.
While you Brenneke comparisons at 1,400 fps are fine but they are as antiquated as Ben's data.
Let's talk a .45 cal/300 grain bullet doing 2100 fps from a 12 gauge and then tell me it's not in the .45/70 range. Let's talk apples and apples and not bother with the obscure references to the old Foster and Brenneke slugs. While great close range defence, they are not the topic of this conversation. I'm talking a 200 yard projectile, delivered very accurately from a 12 gauge that has more than ample penetration for all North American game.
