12 g vs 45-70

[sealhunter]

Excellent post

 

[Boomer]

You really don't know much about the ammo/gun business do you. It's all about faster, faster, faster because that's what the public thinks they need. Ya, they'll limit the performance....lmao...just like they have with muzzleloaders.

Where on earth did I say practical accuracy was 200 yards? It's the snowball trajectory that limits it unless you want to go to some pretty sophisticated optics then shoot your heart out. These new shotguns are as accurate as most off the shelf rifles so shoot at whatever distance your optics and skill level dictates. Keeping on target at 300 yards would only be limited by the operator....not the gun. There is life after the 19th century Boomer...you should get out and experience instead of revelling in the good old days.

If you are correct I think the shotgun only states will probably change their legislation in due course to prohibit these rounds for deer hunting, for the same reason they limited the use of centerfire rifles in the first place. Should that happen, where is the market for the wonder slugs? If you like them em you'd better buy lots while you can.

 

[Pblatzz]

It sucks when politicians force us to hunt with shot guns when any knowledgable hunter realizes that the evolution of slugs is going to surpass some rifles in terms of performance(with a hefty price to pay).

So in the end what good did it do by passing this law? It forced the guns and ammo makers to redesign the way we hunt with shotguns.

Therefore the competition between manufacturers is just starting to heat up. Stay tuned for the next advancement.

+1 I can't agree more, very exiting thread!

 

[doubleman]

I checked out the win and federal sight. and while it looks good on paper, i'd like to see a 3 inch group at 200 yrds before i'd be convinced on it's accuracy.

when it comes to one over the other, I will always take a 45/70, and obviously I am biased. I have seen many deer shot with slugs at 100 yrds and i have seen two moose shot with slugs. i have seen a number of moose deer and elk shot with a 45/70. The 45/70 in my oppinion out performed the slugs, but these were the more common slugs of today, not these apparent uber slugs.

I am not skeptical of all new products, but i am critical of many. If i see or start to hear about game being taken at 200 yrds with a slug gun, (effectively) and see a few papers punched etc. then I will whole heartedly agree that there is more to a slug than there used to be. But until I see someone flatten a griz, Buffalo, Hippo, with one, I'll stay short of saying that these new slugs are comparible with the 45/70.

sealhunter
The doe in the pics was shot at approx 185 yards with a 12 ga slug gun and the buck was shot at about 90 in the neck and exited inside the hind leg. I believe thats about 4+feet of penetration plus the slug was over a foot down in the mud because I gave up looking for it at that point. Here is a pic of the slug from the doe it was recovered from a tree about 25 yrds behind the deer.

That is a barnes expander 435 grn, By the way the gun in the pic is a shotgun its a Savage 210 slug warrior and will shoot 3'' groups at 200 yrds with hornady sst slugs and only 6'' below the bull with a 125yrd zero. Neither of my 45-70's will do that even with the lever-evolution ammo.

P.S. All of the "Big 5" game that you said you were waiting to see shot with a rifled shotgun has already happened about 100+ years ago they just called them 12 bore rifles not 12 ga shotguns.

sheephunter
I think that you may be beating a dead horse here. I know that you are 100%correct but the peanut gallery is always willing to comment on something they have no knowledge of. The question of long range comparision between a 12ga and 45-70 it is obvious if we can shoot a 45 cal sabot slug faster than a 45-70 does it would reach 1000 yards also and maybe faster with less wind drift.I would think the reason that the bpcr guys do not shoot shotguns is because it's s BPCR shoot (black powder cartridge rifle) not FRS shoot (fully rifled shotgun). I have not bothered to shoot my shotgun beyond 200 yards, because I am a hunter if I see a deer at 300 I'll just move 100 yrds closer and then shoot it, SW ontario ain't the prairies we got swamps with trees that the deer hide behind . FYI the Winchester partition gold slugs (2.75" 385grn) will completely penetrait 2 adult whitetail deer (broadside) and a 4" maple tree so I'm pretty sure a grizzly regardless of size would die all the same

 

[sealhunter]

It's plain to see those animals were shot at point blank in your garden.

 

[H4831]

Why would you show us a picture of you sitting there with a special shotgun pointed dead at you, and the action closed?
This is a very bad breach of common sense safety, a bit of a shock to see it on CGNs.

 

[sealhunter]

Even the peanut gallery doesn't point guns at themselves

 

[doubleman]

If you look a little closer you will notice the barrel is behind my back in both pics. If my knee is against the deers head and the gun is on the deers front shoulder how would the gun be pointing at me?
ME THINKS THE PEANUT GALLERY NEEDS SOME NEW GLASSES.

 

[Brutus]

Not many, but I do recall reading on the Brenneke website how they used thier slugs on Hippo, Elephant, Buffalo, etc. had pics and everything!

I don't own a 45/70 and probably never would, but I'd probably pick one over a slug gun, even with the new wonder slugs.

Why? Wonder slugs are expensive and not widely available, whereas you can get or make proper 45/70 bullets easily, for not too much money, which means you will pracitce more with your chosen load.

I believe myself that the wonder slug market in the USA/Canada, is primarily concerned with deer hunter's needs in mind. Hence the higher velocity and rifled barrels/scopes, to give maximum benefit, from this design. (an obvious exception would be most Dixie slugs, but no civilians can purchase Dixie slugs for smooth shotgun barrels)

If bear hunting in close bush, and a big bore rifle was not legal to use, a Dangerous Game Slug, or a Brenneke Rotweill in a smoothbore barrel, & rifle sights of some sort, would be certainly my second choice.

PS: The fella in my Avatar fell to a slug that speaks German.....

 

[sealhunter]

Nope, it's pointing at your side.

 

[doubleman]

Brutus
Lightfield makes exellent slugs for closer range work and they perform very well on a bear, I think they are 1.25oz.
Regards

 

[agilent_one]

Shotguns are for the birds. Literally.

 

[303carbine]

At that distance and further , you wouldn't recover a 45-70 slug of the same weight.

 

[H4831]

I have looked again at the pictures and I will stick to my first assessment. In the second picture, at least, it would take a good chunk out of you.

 

[lackeyse]

I have looked again at the pictures and I will stick to my first assessment. In the second picture, at least, it would take a good chunk out of you.

Just an itty bitty chunk. Not enough energy. Now if that was a 45-70 then watch out. Sorry couldn't help it.

 

[ben hunchak]

I don't think that a true believer would jump on and off the 45/70 bandwagon, then try to demean some of the good guys on this site, who are very knowledgeable, and offer lots of experience(like Boomer). The 45/70 has much greater S.D. then the 12 gauge, with much longer bullets and much slower twist to accommodate those lengths. This is what makes the 45/70 a better penetrator as well as much better at long range. The quality of the barrels of most modern 45/70s is far above most 12 gauges, with makers like,Badger, Gr. Mountain, Kreiger, Shiloh, and even Marlin.
No....you wagon jumpers are going to have to prove 45/70 ownership before you can get back on!

 

[sealhunter]

if you have a 45/70 and know how to use it,, I guarantee, you won't be in the bush this fall elk hunting,where the griz are wandering, ...

wondering, hmmm, should I have taken the slug gun

 

[sheephunter]

If you are correct I think the shotgun only states will probably change their legislation in due course to prohibit these rounds for deer hunting, for the same reason they limited the use of centerfire rifles in the first place. Should that happen, where is the market for the wonder slugs? If you like them em you'd better buy lots while you can.

It's happened with the muzzleloaders....no reason to believe it won't happen here.

 

[sheephunter]

I don't think that a true believer would jump on and off the 45/70 bandwagon, then try to demean some of the good guys on this site, who are very knowledgeable, and offer lots of experience(like Boomer). The 45/70 has much greater S.D. then the 12 gauge, with much longer bullets and much slower twist to accommodate those lengths. This is what makes the 45/70 a better penetrator as well as much better at long range. The quality of the barrels of most modern 45/70s is far above most 12 gauges, with makers like,Badger, Gr. Mountain, Kreiger, Shiloh, and even Marlin.
No....you wagon jumpers are going to have to prove 45/70 ownership before you can get back on!

How does a .438 grain 45 cal bullet in a 12 gauge have less sectional density, less BC and is shorter than a 438 grain .45 cal bullet in a 45/70? Oh right, I'm not a believer.

Are we talking about Jebus here or rifles. The only thing I believe in are the facts and quite truthfully, I've never been on a bandwagon......I prefer to have my own thoughts but whatever works for you. If you want to believe that the magical .45/70 is a super uber gravity defying bullet, far me to try and shake the beliefs of a true believer like you. I guess some of us are just a bit more independant and would rather lead than follow........enjoy the bandwagon ride! Despite the fact that I have a .45/70, I have no interest in joining your happy little band!

Once we start talking about the .45/70 or the 12 gauge as a long range hunting round, the conversation has run its course...

 

[blargon]

Nevermind, can't teach an old, stubborn dog new tricks....