12 g vs 45-70

I checked out the win and federal sight. and while it looks good on paper, i'd like to see a 3 inch group at 200 yrds before i'd be convinced on it's accuracy.
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If you're up to the job, I'll gurantee a Benelli or Winchester is.....Actually even my Encore will do that but not sure I want to shoot three in a row out of it. I'll guarantee all these guns are far better shooters than the average operator under hunting conditions.

I find it funny how many experts there are about these 12 gauge slugs that hadn't even heard of them before today, let alone ever seen or shot one but then again, this is the internet.
 
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OK, I'll ask again. What are the wonder slugs for?

If you say long range is not the advantage, and the rounds kick too hard to shoot a 3 shot group with, and the foster and Brenneke slugs already kill deer out to 100 yards, what is their niche? You surely don't expect anyone to trade in their .270 so they can shoot deer with a 12 gauge where rifle hunting is allowed. I've been in this game long enough to know that band wagon jumping tends to be expensive, and more often than not, the investment in a shiny new system is seldom worth the cost.

As for the earlier statement that higher velocities is what drives the gun business, I would opine that it only drives a small part of it. There has been much cynicism towards gun advertisements since the magnum craze of the '60's. Then guys began to realize that a .264 Winchester didn't do anything a .270 wouldn't do, a .300 Weatherby wouldn't do anything a .30/06 wouldn't do, and the .378 Weatherby killed game just like the .375 H&H. The real jump in velocity came with the .378 and .404 based cartridges necked down to small bore diameters, but not everyone wants one.

The important advancements in our industry since the '70's is the improvements in accuracy and bullet design, and the development of stainless steel for firearm use, synthetic stocks, and better optics and mounts. If a hunter considers his maximum range to be 300 yards in relatively open country, then having a rifle that adds 30% more velocity to the bullet doesn't change that. The long range marksman who has the skill to take game a a half mile will adjust his sight for that range, so again, the increase in velocity is not the overwhelming element responsible for his success; and again I think of the Adobe Walls shot and the civil war snipers who would leave many modern marksmen shaking their heads.
 
doubleman said:
Brutus
Lightfield makes exellent slugs for closer range work and they perform very well on a bear, I think they are 1.25oz.
Regards
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Thanks doubleman, I have utilized Winchester Partition Gold 20 gauge 2 3/4 inch sabots at the range only.

Brenneke is the only brand I have used on a critter, 12 bore....so my experience is pretty darn lean.

In my Ithaca M87, (rifled barrel, Partition Gold, 20 bore) they grouped very well at 35 & 75 yards.
Iron sights BTW.

Anyone here use these on critters?
 
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What exactly is a wonder slug or an uber slug? I take it you mean the Barnes x bullet, Nosler Partition, XP3, Core Lokt or the Accu Point. I find it strange that in a shotgun configuration they are wonder/uber bullets but in a brass case they are premium rounds:confused:.

The important advancements in our industry since the '70's is the improvements in accuracy and bullet design, and the development of stainless steel for firearm use, synthetic stocks, and better optics and mounts.

For anyone interested in advanced shotgun hunting check out the line up of guns offered from Tar-Hunt, RSG series.

http://www.tarhunt.com/tarhunt/ecatalog/index.cfm?id=1

I would love to have one loaded with an wonder/uber slug with a muzzle velocity of 2000ft/s or better just to see how they fair out at deer camp vs anything anyone is carrying.

You bet times are changing and change creates fear.
 
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Boomer said:
OK, I'll ask again. What are the wonder slugs for?

If you say long range is not the advantage, and the rounds kick too hard to shoot a 3 shot group with, and the foster and Brenneke slugs already kill deer out to 100 yards, what is their niche? You surely don't expect anyone to trade in their .270 so they can shoot deer with a 12 gauge where rifle hunting is allowed. I've been in this game long enough to know that band wagon jumping tends to be expensive, and more often than not, the investment in a shiny new system is seldom worth the cost.

As for the earlier statement that higher velocities is what drives the gun business, I would opine that it only drives a small part of it. There has been much cynicism towards gun advertisements since the magnum craze of the '60's. Then guys began to realize that a .264 Winchester didn't do anything a .270 wouldn't do, a .300 Weatherby wouldn't do anything a .30/06 wouldn't do, and the .378 Weatherby killed game just like the .375 H&H. The real jump in velocity came with the .378 and .404 based cartridges necked down to small bore diameters, but not everyone wants one.

The important advancements in our industry since the '70's is the improvements in accuracy and bullet design, and the development of stainless steel for firearm use, synthetic stocks, and better optics and mounts. If a hunter considers his maximum range to be 300 yards in relatively open country, then having a rifle that adds 30% more velocity to the bullet doesn't change that. The long range marksman who has the skill to take game a a half mile will adjust his sight for that range, so again, the increase in velocity is not the overwhelming element responsible for his success; and again I think of the Adobe Walls shot and the civil war snipers who would leave many modern marksmen shaking their heads.
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Boomer, I don't expect people to do anything nor am I a proponent of these slugs and I'm not sure why you are trying so hard to put me on a bandwagon as I said I have no interest in bandwagons. I just brought some info forward about a new product and somehow the .45/70 believers got their nickers in a knot. Quite truthfully, all I was trying to do was share some info about a new product but it seems many are just too frightened of new information to actually absorb it.

These new slugs and guns have basically doubled the effective range of the slug hunter and will be popular with those forced to use slugs guns by regulations. I've never indicated nor suggested that they will replace any centrefire cartridges, although their performance does put them in the same category as some short-range cartridges, nor have I suggested anything else but the fact that they are a niche cartridge. You and some others are the ones jumping to the the wild conclusions on here. All I've done is present some facts about a new product I was exposed to and share some info I had......sorry it frightens you and others so much. Just go back through the past few pages and look at all the experts on these new slugs who had opinions when in fact they didn't even know what I was talking about, let alone having ever seen or used one. It sure didn't stop them from wading right in there with a perceived informed opinion. Not sure about you, but to me an informed opinion means you are informed.

Truthfully I could care less if anyone ever shot these slugs but obviously a lot of people on here were unaware of their existence and I thought the purpose of this board was to share knowledge. Obviously a few disagree. Sorry but facts are facts.

As for your comments about what drives the industry Boomer, you need to get out of the past and look at today's generation of shooters. And today's generation is not you and I, it's guys that want faster/harder hitting and damn the consequences. What happened in the 60s and 70s is old news. The manufacturers have convinced the consumer they need more speed and now the consumer is demanding it. These slugs are just an aswer to that. Sorry if it frightens you and others, but shotguns and muzzleloaders are starting to take their place alongside the performance of many rifle cartridges. Not saying it's good or bad but it damn sure is a fact......you better get used to it.....I'm sure there is more to come.

Please don't take this wrong and it's not aimed at you or anyone specific but some of the comments on here appear to be nothing more than pathetic old men clinging desperately to the past. It's a new world and with that new world comes change. No doubt there's lots to be learned from the old timers but you can bet that technology will march on and that technology will actually make some things better than the old way or even replace some of the old things. Will the 12 gauge replace the .45/70? Not in a million years but that still doesn't mean that it doesn't offer superior performance. We buy rifles for a lot more resons than pure ballistics alone.

Some days it's just better to say hey, I learned something today......today's your day! No shame in not knowing something...the real shame comes in not admiting it.
 
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This all sounds real fishy to me.

Why are you so against the 45/70?

What did it do to you?

Round these parts we like our guns with levers and big bullets.

You comin round here with yer stories of uber slugs and such, causin concern and the like. You's best be movin' on. everybody knows slugs is for deers and possums inside of 50 yards.

Now go on, ya hear, go now. I said go on with ya, ...

:p:D
 
Brutus
If you can get your hands on a box of the Lightfield hybrid 20ga slugs give em a try in your Ithaca, I think you will be shocked with the accuracy. The 3 20ga guys in our group have all switched to them and are getting 75yard clover leaf groups. I have stopped shooting the partition gold slugs for safety reasons as they seem to be next to unstopable, which is not the best for party hunting and doing deer drives. I have never recovered one at any range on a deer or a moose, I think the bullets jacket is to thick for a deer size animal. I like slugs that stop under the skin on the opposite side of the deer as we hunt an area close to a small town.
 
lackeyse
I like the tarhunt slug guns but the price was a little scary and then I found the Savage 210, I expected it to be crappy but was very wrong. They made the action the same as a model 10 rifle just in giant size, the bolt is huge but very smooth. It shoots good groups and the recoil is much lighter than with the pump guns due to a better stock design. The only improvement needed is a walnut stock and I already have the blank waiting.
Regards
 
Brutus
Sorry I have never tried them in a 12 or 20.
I have tried:
Federal Barnes expander
Winchester Partition Gold
Winchester BRI
Hornady SST
Lightfield Hybrid EXP
Remington Copper solid

I like the SST's performance and the price is the best $11/5
Regards
 
doubleman said:
lackeyse
I like the tarhunt slug guns but the price was a little scary and then I found the Savage 210, I expected it to be crappy but was very wrong. They made the action the same as a model 10 rifle just in giant size, the bolt is huge but very smooth. It shoots good groups and the recoil is much lighter than with the pump guns due to a better stock design. The only improvement needed is a walnut stock and I already have the blank waiting.
Regards
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Hahaha. The price is scary on the tarhunt slug guns.

The RSG is a custom two-lug bolt action firearm, drilled and tapped for standard Leupold windage or Weaver bases. The design standardly boasts a glass bedded barreled action with a free-floating, threaded-in heavy wall, fully rifled Shaw barrel in a black matte finish. A black McMillan fiberglass stock and Pachmayr Decelerator recoil pad complete the package.
All of this with the option of nickel/teflon metal finish and a Jewell trigger.

In the end I went with the Remington 870 SPS super slug deer gun. The price was within my budget but there are a few things I don't like about it(I wouldn't recommend one).

I only pointed out the tarhunt to show just how far the shotgun has come.
 
Brutus said:
Great advice doubleman, thank you!

Now I have to ask, any experiences with Winchester Platinum Sabots, in 20 bore?

I find this thread very informative!! :)

Cheers.....
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I don't have any experience with them, but my buddy uses them in his Mossberg 12ga bolt. He loves them. I have been using the old Remington 3" Premier Copper Solids. They are an older sabot slug but they group like mad outta my gun.
 
lackeyse
My 870 is a little hard on the shoulder even with the limbsaver pad, yet I have still shot about 20 deer with it. My only complaint is the crappy sights that Remington put on them, the front will cover a deer at 100yards which makes accuracy a problem.

Buy the way you can buy 6 or 7 savage 210's for the price of a Tarhunt and the Savage has a Shaw barrel on it also.
 
Backwoods said:
Poke yourself with a diabetic needle, and then a nail. I bet the diabetic needle at the same velocity punctures futher than the nail.

I tend to follow the 45-70 thinking based on what I have read / heard.

That being said I am by no means a ballistics expert. :)
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Your forgetting the importance of wound channel.

ie...I doubt one could bleed to death from a hole caused by a diabetic needle, but people have bled to death from holes poked in them from nails.
 
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