130 gr TTSX

1899 said:
What was the weight of the NP and Hornady at the following stages of penetration:

1", 3", 7" etc etc.

The weights were obviously decreasing. This means the calculation of momentum is not (if you use the initial bullet weight) accurate, nor is the effect of sectional density. Additionally, we don't know the diameters of the various bullets at various stages of penetration.

Bullet construction is only one factor in the multitude of factors that affect performance. If you want to compare the effects of sd and momentum on penetration in dry paper, you need to look at two bullets that are equal in construction - ie NP vs NP, TSX vs TSX etc.

But GH already knows this.
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Yes, I sure do.:D

It's one of the aspects of the "which bullet/which cartridge" debates that I think is overblown.

People chuck around numbers to prove that one bullet/cartridge is better than the other, but they dont' have a number value for bullet construction that is easily defineable.

I prefer to shoot a coupel of bullets at some paper, compare it to what I already *know* will work, and make a determination based on what I see, not what my calculater tells me. And from this, what I see is that the 130gr TTSX did just as well or better than any of the larger bullets, impacting at a velocity that would shred many bullets, with no more recoil and shooting pretty darn flat.

I can get a 125gr Ballistic Tip going over 3500 FPS and that would start off with about the same energy, momentum and SD...But wouldn't get too far into the paper!:)

Which is why -after- placement- bullet construction is going to trump my calculator.;)
 
I prefer to shoot a coupel of bullets at some paper, compare it to what I already *know* will work
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That is probably all anyone can do, which goes back to my question: "how low could you go with the velocity of the 130gr TTSX while still having comparable penetration to the 180gr lead core bullets?"
 
Boomer said:
The higher velocity of the lighter bullet makes it's momentum the equal of the heavier bullet when both are fired at similar pressure from the same rifle.
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I'm sorry I don't follow this one. Momentum is mass x velocity what does pressure and even the same rifle have to do with momentum?
 
Gatehouse said:
How come the 180 bullets didn't penetrate any better than the 130gr bullet then?:p
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The 180 did penetrate further, not much, but some and I don't know how that would translate on meat. Is a quarter inch on paper worth a couple of inches in meat? I don't know but I suspect it might be. On the other side of the coin the 130 expanded more and in meat may not have expanded as much and in consequence penetrated deeper. Very interesting anyway.
Gate, I said "many believe", when talking about momentum, I didn't say I was a believer or a non believer.:p
 
For the first time that I can remember, Barnes bullets are actually cheaper then Nosler Partitions.

.338cal 225gr TSX = $50.99/50
.338cal 225gr NP = $58.99/50
.338cal 250gr Horn IL = $41.99/100

Looks like I will be making the switch to Hornady IL's permanent.



Edit:
Gate what method did you use to secure the newspaper? I still plan on doing bullet penetration tests, but I will not get to them until after the wife leaves on holidays at the end of July.
I plan of building a box using 3/4" plywood, approx 5' long, and just the dimensions to hold newspapers flat. I have the idea of sandwiching the newspaper behind a panel of 3/4" plywood, that will have 2 to 4 shooting holes cut out in the front, that I will be able to fire through. I am thinking of compressing the newspaper slightly, just enough to increase the pressure on it so it cannot shift after bullet impact.
I will use wet newspaper as Finn Aagaard did.
 
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Demonical said:
For the first time that I can remember, Barnes bullets are actually cheaper then Nosler Partitions.

.338cal 225gr TSX = $50.99/50
.338cal 225gr NP = $58.99/50
.338cal 250gr Horn IL = $41.99/100

Looks like I will be making the switch to Hornady IL's permanent.
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Wow that's pretty expensive! I get complete whole .30-06 bullets for less than just the tip you're buying! (And I kill all my big game too!) Got to give these guys credit as they sure can sell the "magic" in those tips! ;)
 
Woodsman said:
Wow that's pretty expensive! I get complete whole .30-06 bullets for less than just the tip you're buying! (And I kill all my big game too!) Got to give these guys credit as they sure can sell the "magic" in those tips! ;)
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The bullets listed arent' tipped. One is a hollowpoint, 2 are exposed lead soft points.
 
Demonical said:
Edit:
Gate what method did you use to secure the newspaper? I still plan on doing bullet penetration tests, but I will not get to them until after the wife leaves on holidays at the end of July.
I plan of building a box using 3/4" plywood, approx 5' long, and just the dimensions to hold newspapers flat. I have the idea of sandwiching the newspaper behind a panel of 3/4" plywood, that will have 2 to 4 shooting holes cut out in the front, that I will be able to fire through. I am thinking of compressing the newspaper slightly, just enough to increase the pressure on it so it cannot shift after bullet impact.
I will use wet newspaper as Finn Aagaard did.
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I just use a low tech version- I get a cardboard box abou tthe size of the newspaper, and stack newspaper into it until it's full. I usually put some Cabelas catalogues or similar near the end, to catch anything. Newspaper is tough, but the glossy stuff is REALLY tough...

All bullets but the Hornady penetrated at least some of the catalogues on the end incidently. Although the NPO didn't get far into it.
 
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Omega said:
The 180 did penetrate further, not much, but some and I don't know how that would translate on meat.
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2 of the 180gr Bullets didn't go further...:)


Is a quarter inch on paper worth a couple of inches in meat? I don't know but I suspect it might be. On the other side of the coin the 130 expanded more and in meat may not have expanded as much and in consequence penetrated deeper. Very interesting anyway.
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All I can really say for sure is that bullets that will penetrate through 15+ inches of dry newspaper is not going to have much of an issue going through most animals shoulders.:)
 
Gatehouse said:
I just use a low tech version- I get a cardboard box abou tthe size of the newspaper, and stack newspaper into it until it's full. I usually put some Cabelas catalogues or similar near the end, to catch anything. Newspaper is tough, but the glossy stuff is REALLY tough...

All bullets but the Hornady penetrated at least some of the catalogues on the end incidently. Although the NPO didn't get far into it.
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But that worked, eh?

I have the idea that I want a controlled, repeatable method. What I plan will not be high tech either but maybe relative to a cardboard box it wll seem so.
I need to figure out a simple way to compress the newspaper the same amount each time.
 
Omega said:
I'm sorry I don't follow this one. Momentum is mass x velocity what does pressure and even the same rifle have to do with momentum?
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This simply keeps apples being compared to other apples. If both rounds are fired at the same pressure, the velocity relative to the weight of each bullet will be equal. That way you know you are not creating an artificial disparity between the two bullet weights. If you load the lighter bullet to say 80% of maximum pressure and the heavier bullet to 100%, you might be able to say that the greater momentum of the heavier bullet resulted in deeper penetration, but clearly if both bullets are loaded to the same pressure, in the same rifle, penetration will remain equal, allowing for normal variances in cartridge to cartridge velocity.
 
Demonical said:
.338cal 225gr TSX = $50.99/50
.338cal 225gr NP = $58.99/50
.338cal 250gr Horn IL = $41.99/100

Looks like I will be making the switch to Hornady IL's permanent
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I shoot alot of Hornady IL's...but I like to use them for summer practice, and use a similar TSX bullet for hunting in the fall. POI is usually quite similar and usually the adjustments needed to switch over is minimal. I might only shoot 50 rounds of TSX in a year or two. $50 a year isnt alot to ensure my bullet will give top notch performance when I get that hard earned chance at the animal in my sights! :) your mileage may vary
 
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1899 said:
Momentum is calculated by multiplying mass and velocity:
p=mv

Any change in mass or velocity will equal a proportional change in momentum.

A 130gr bullet is .01857 lbs

p(1) = .01857 x 3525 fps
p(1) = 65.5 lb-ft/sec

180gr = .02571
p(2) = .02571 x 2970
p(2) = 76.4 lb-ft/sec

You would have to drive the 130gr bullet at 4112 fps in order to have the same momentum as the 180gr bullet. You could not do this out of the .300wsm.



The 180gr TSX did. It was only 1/4" more, but none of us knows what that really means in a hunting situation. Your opening to the thread warned everyone of that caveat. Does it matter? Probably not. It's all just academic anyways. People did, and still do hunt successfully with plain old boring bulllets (speer, sierra, hornady etc) fired out of plain old boring cartridges (.270, .30-06, .375 H&H).

But it is fun to talk and think about topics like these. It makes for good excuses to load up more ammo, go to the range and experiment/practice, which is a great thing. So thanks GH.
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That might be the theory, but it doesn't square with real world shooting. Provided I shot bullets of similar construction, penetration was always similar when fired at similar pressure from the same rifle at the same range, despite widely different SD and impact velocity.

When you calculated for mass you neglected to divide by the velocity of gravity, so your numbers are off a bit.
 
Boomer said:
This simply keeps apples being compared to other apples. If both rounds are fired at the same pressure, the velocity relative to the weight of each bullet will be equal. That way you know you are not creating an artificial disparity between the two bullet weights. If you load the lighter bullet to say 80% of maximum pressure and the heavier bullet to 100%, you might be able to say that the greater momentum of the heavier bullet resulted in deeper penetration, but clearly if both bullets are loaded to the same pressure, in the same rifle, penetration will remain equal, allowing for normal variances in cartridge to cartridge velocity.
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I still don't follow. You can develop momentum numbers for any and all bullet weights shot from any gun through the formula. Momentum= mass x velocity / gravity constant (32.1729). Where does pressure figure into it? Or what inequality does it create not having the same pressure? It is like saying that all the weights of bullets have to be fired at the same velocity to be compared.
 
130 grain TSX bullet going 3500 fps...dead critter
500 grain cast bullet going 1500 fps...dead critter
Can't kill'em if you don't hit'em

I have done the dry paper test with 140 grain Barnes out of my 7x57, 140 grain going into phone books, 140 grains after picking it out of phone books.
Hornady,Sierra,CIL, all fragmented at 25 yards into dry phone books at the same distance.
The effect these bullets would have....dead critter,yes...pretty bullets...no
 
A 308 shooting 130gr TSX/TTSX bullets should hit 3000 to 3100fps.

I don't know that the extra velocity from a 300 WSM/ Win would be necessary within normal hunting ranges (- 400yds) with regard to trajectory or terminal performance.

It would make a compelling argument for a light weight lower recoiling rifle in 308 that should be able to take anything in NA.

P
 
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