147 9mm bullets - true or false?
- Thread starter mr00jimbo
- Start date
gushulak
CGN frequent flyer
The early design of the 147gr. JHP was pushed into service as the deep penetrating Winchester OLN load, it was designed for accuracy out of suppressed guns, not terminal ballistics. Therefore on the streets the early 147gr. JHP's gained a reputation for being poor stoppers, barely expanding and deeply penetrating, often exiting suspects.
Add 15 years and millions of dollars of research and development and we now have the latest generation of 147gr. loads that penetrate idealy 10-14" after barriers, expand reliably to .65-.70 and use the latest technology like Gold Dots, Golden Saber, Ranger T or Fed HST that retain their weight after light clothing or heavy barriers. They offer more penetration than the 115-124gr. bullet weights, generally the same size expansion and the ability to punch through intermediate barriers better than the light weight bullets.
So, what you are reading is dated material, from about 10-15 years ago. The new 147gr. bullets are great performers and the ones you will find most people and law enforcement using for serious purposes when a 9mm is selected.
I've tried almost all major brands JHP's in all weights through Glock pistols and all are reliable and perform as designed in "backyard" ballistic tests.
Add 15 years and millions of dollars of research and development and we now have the latest generation of 147gr. loads that penetrate idealy 10-14" after barriers, expand reliably to .65-.70 and use the latest technology like Gold Dots, Golden Saber, Ranger T or Fed HST that retain their weight after light clothing or heavy barriers. They offer more penetration than the 115-124gr. bullet weights, generally the same size expansion and the ability to punch through intermediate barriers better than the light weight bullets.
So, what you are reading is dated material, from about 10-15 years ago. The new 147gr. bullets are great performers and the ones you will find most people and law enforcement using for serious purposes when a 9mm is selected.
I've tried almost all major brands JHP's in all weights through Glock pistols and all are reliable and perform as designed in "backyard" ballistic tests.
mr00jimbo said:From some home defense book:
You tell us Jimbo, you've got a 9mm pistol and a couple of boxes of 147 Grain Golden Sabre I sold you.
Put the theory to the test yourself! From my experience, I've had no issues with 147 grain HP nor 147 grain TMJ and I almost shoot these 2 exclusively now. Unless, someone's got 115 or 124 grain for a lot less money, I'm sticking to what's been working for me.
My issue with 147gr JHP is finding it! I have a small stock of Hydra-shocks and all I can find locally is Remginton 115gr JHP (18.95 per bx of 50 at Reliable)
John Parson sell JHP if asked, but I am not sure which brand.
I think you can also get Fiochi 115 gr here in Vancouver also.
John Parson sell JHP if asked, but I am not sure which brand.
I think you can also get Fiochi 115 gr here in Vancouver also.
Splatter said:
Originally yes (military driven), then police departments started using it (specifically the FBI, then others followed) because of early penetration failures with 115 gr hollow points. - dan
- Location
- Calgary, Alberta
Bit of a stretch to just dismiss 147gr bullets that way, after all there are many makes.
As said above, they were designed for use in suppressed MP5s (I've actually got ten rounds of the original load used by the SEALs in my collection). The FBI decided after the Miami shootout that they made sense because they had better penetration, but my view of the FBI shootout is that it simply showed that they needed rifles, instead of pistols and shotguns.
They do have better penetration, but that's at the cost of expansion. It's also true that the current 147gr loads are far better than the original ones were at expanding, but I still think they're inferior to the 115gr +P+ JHP loads and similar.
Super Vel used simple hollowpoints, they used high velocity to ensure expansion, the slower the bullet goes the less likely it is to expand, everything else being equal.
I've also never understood why some people say 147gr has less recoil than 115gr or 124gr loads, simple physics tells you that you are moving a greater mass, so there will be more recoil with a heavier bullet. Certainly it feels that way in my hands. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction?
However I've never noticed any real reliability problems, and I used 40 rounds of that SEAL ammo through a Beretta 92F, worked fine.
Cor-Bon makes a high velocity 147gr load, I've always thought that's the best idea if you really have a hang up on 147gr bullets.
The main advantage I've found is simply that they're more accurate, because they have a longer bearing surface.
As said above, they were designed for use in suppressed MP5s (I've actually got ten rounds of the original load used by the SEALs in my collection). The FBI decided after the Miami shootout that they made sense because they had better penetration, but my view of the FBI shootout is that it simply showed that they needed rifles, instead of pistols and shotguns.
They do have better penetration, but that's at the cost of expansion. It's also true that the current 147gr loads are far better than the original ones were at expanding, but I still think they're inferior to the 115gr +P+ JHP loads and similar.
Super Vel used simple hollowpoints, they used high velocity to ensure expansion, the slower the bullet goes the less likely it is to expand, everything else being equal.
I've also never understood why some people say 147gr has less recoil than 115gr or 124gr loads, simple physics tells you that you are moving a greater mass, so there will be more recoil with a heavier bullet. Certainly it feels that way in my hands. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction?
However I've never noticed any real reliability problems, and I used 40 rounds of that SEAL ammo through a Beretta 92F, worked fine.
Cor-Bon makes a high velocity 147gr load, I've always thought that's the best idea if you really have a hang up on 147gr bullets.
The main advantage I've found is simply that they're more accurate, because they have a longer bearing surface.
The 147gr loads do not expand less. Even the FBI tests, which are now old, revealed otherwise.cybershooters said:
Conclusions from the FBI tests: http://demigod.org/~zak/firearms/fbi-pistol.php
- Location
- Calgary, Alberta
I'm going to have to load that table up into Excel and do a proper statistical analysis, but I've got to say point blank that table as it stands in its conclusions is total bollocks, because the effectiveness of the round is based on the total wound channel size, and how many people do you know who are 22 inches thick (okay, yeah, side shot, but what about overpenetration being a danger)? It only makes sense to measure the wound channel up to about a foot at most. Wound channel size per inch is a better definition of effectiveness I think. Let me work it out, hmm... yeah, if you work it out that way, say take wound volume and divide by inches of penetration, the lighter bullets come out on top!
So if you disregard the light bullets that don't go a foot, you end up with 124gr bullets being the best ones all around.
Like I say, need to do a proper statistical check to be sure of these things. It's not easy to look at that table and draw simple conclusions. For example the Winchester Ranger +P+ 115gr JHP has the most expansion - but so does the 147gr Talon. And both of them have the same amount of wound channel per inch travelled - the only difference is the penetration depth, essentially. So if you shot someone who was only 10.2 inches thick, the effect would be identical. Even the recoil is almost the same.
But that's just one brand out of a big table.
I've got to say quite honestly that bullet design is probably a much bigger factor than bullet weight. Plus there's no reason you can't push a 147gr bullet to a high velocity anyway. If you look at the first two, the slower Talon load doesn't expand as much as the second one which is going much faster.
Basically you cannot generalise about bullet weight is what that shows me.
So if you disregard the light bullets that don't go a foot, you end up with 124gr bullets being the best ones all around.
Like I say, need to do a proper statistical check to be sure of these things. It's not easy to look at that table and draw simple conclusions. For example the Winchester Ranger +P+ 115gr JHP has the most expansion - but so does the 147gr Talon. And both of them have the same amount of wound channel per inch travelled - the only difference is the penetration depth, essentially. So if you shot someone who was only 10.2 inches thick, the effect would be identical. Even the recoil is almost the same.
But that's just one brand out of a big table.
I've got to say quite honestly that bullet design is probably a much bigger factor than bullet weight. Plus there's no reason you can't push a 147gr bullet to a high velocity anyway. If you look at the first two, the slower Talon load doesn't expand as much as the second one which is going much faster.
Basically you cannot generalise about bullet weight is what that shows me.
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Steve David
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Oshawa, Ontario
I prefer 124 grain as well, but if thay have none in stock then I buy 147gr.
