160gr rn in 6.5x55 with H4831

tletang

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Hi All,
I picked up some 160gr rn .264 bullets the other day at a gunshow for my 6.5x55. Normally before I start loading a new bullet weight I check multiple sources for load data. When I checked the data available for this load I found the following:

H4831
Bullet Weight 160GR RN Min-Max
Nosler 7th n/a
Lee 2nd edition 44-48
Hogdon (Online) 44-48
Hornady 9th Edition 38.3-42.3
Lyman 49th Edition 41.5-46

The Hornady Max loads are less than the starting loads of most of my other data sources also the listed max velocity for their load is 2300fps, which seems a bit slow to me. The other manuals list 2500 or so. Is the Hornady manual being overly conservative for older weaker actions? The rifle I'm shooting is a sported Brazilian 1908 with commercial barrel.
 
For me, manuals provide a safe starting point. Their test guns are not my rifle, so the load workup is to my particular gun's preferences. Up a half a grain at a time.
Most 6.5x55's seem to want a fairly steamy load to shoot their best.
You have a good strong '98 to work with.
 
For me, manuals provide a safe starting point. Their test guns are not my rifle, so the load workup is to my particular gun's preferences. Up a half a grain at a time.
Most 6.5x55's seem to want a fairly steamy load to shoot their best.
You have a good strong '98 to work with.
I couldn't disagree with you more. Their test guns are pressure barrels, and they handload for a living after they have recieved degrees in ballistics.
His gun is also 100 years old.
Ivor
 
I couldn't disagree with you more. Their test guns are pressure barrels, and they handload for a living after they have recieved degrees in ballistics.
His gun is also 100 years old.
Ivor
I did not suggest that OP exceed maximum pressure as determined in those pressure barrels.
Those Lee and Hodgdon published max's of 48/4831/160 will be HOT loads. Maybe too hot for some rifles.
That's the whole point of working within your own gun and components limits.
Many's the book max that was over the top in the rifle at hand. Some of them however, have comfortable with charges over published data.

A German made '98, probably a DWM or equally excellent manufacturer, from the '20's, the golden years of old world craftmanship ... is not only very strong to this day, but also quite safe in it's gas handling should a case failure ever occur.
How many German '98 Mauser Kabooms do you hear of?.
 
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I've actually seen a Mauser 98 in which an overload had cracked both front locking lugs, and set the bolt back into the safety lug. It was an FN, probably newer than the one he has. Even good metal changes character over time, and needs to be shown proper respect.
Ivor
 
I agree with you ivor. Respect.
Nobody is suggesting an overload here.
OP is asking if the Horn. data is overly conservative for older weaker actions such as Krag, M94 mauser, etc.
To which I reply, yes ... in my opinion.
A look at some of the older manuals data will show clearly how much more conservative they all have become in recent years.
Still, I occasionally run into modern data that proves way too hot in my gun.
Have a look at Barnes #1 for 6.5x55 ... curl your socks!.
 
The original Norma reloading manual shows some pretty warm loads for their 156 grain pill as well.
I'm reasonably sure the Swedes should know how to load for their own pet cartridge.

Start at 42, and work up from there carefully.

Dave.
 
What does the Hornady data say it's for; a modern action or a surplus action?
If it lists surplus then they are usually reduced for the weaker Krag rifles in 6.5x55mm.
Ignore the Lee data since they don't have their own ballistic lab and only reprint data from other labs (or so the internet says).

If you are paranoid about 100 year old steel even after having it checked out by a gunsmith, don't shoot it.
Personally if the rifle is sound (based on the judgment of an experienced gunsmith) and having those 3 sets of data I'd start at 42gr. I load for accuracy so if accuracy gets progressively worse going up from there I would start going down to see if it gets better. I've never heard of a Swede performing best at lower velocities though. The loads I use for my M96 are above some books max loads but still under others. I get no pressure signs and have very good accuracy so I wont complain. If the rifle starts acting weird I'll have it checked out by a gunsmith since it's 114 years old at the moment.
 
Hi all,
Thanks for the info, I'm not concerned about the rifle particularly. I've been shooting 140gr bullets out of it fairly regularly with a max load of 47gr of H4831 so far without any signs of pressure. I normally neck size only but when I full length size it doesn't take much sizing to get it back to spec. The hogdon manual doesn't specify whether the loading listed is for older actions or not. The test rifle listed is the mauser model 96 the description in the manual also says "Reloaders are cautioned against attempting high intensity loads in either the Mauser or Krag actions, for they were not designed for pressures commonly developed in current factory rifles. Loads listed were safe in our test rifles, but maximum loads should be developed with care by each individual handloader".
 
I agree with all of the above posts, good info.

My experience with H4831 is 44.5-45 grains is about as much as I've ever been able to fit. And that's with a 140 seated out .010" off the lead.

I own 3 rifles in 6.5x55 and load for them all. Like others have stated every rifle is different. For instance if I'm loading 120 grain bullets with H4831, my swede 96 rifle shoots very well with 42.5 grains but my swede 96 FSR target rifle likes 43.5. Then there's my customs built 6.5x55 running deer rifle which shoots well with slow and fast loads.

Like others have stated, start at the bottom and load in .05 grain increments watching for signs of pressure.

Often a slower load produces the best accuracy in most military calibers.
 
I agree with you ivor. Respect.
Nobody is suggesting an overload here.
OP is asking if the Horn. data is overly conservative for older weaker actions such as Krag, M94 mauser, etc.
To which I reply, yes ... in my opinion.
A look at some of the older manuals data will show clearly how much more conservative they all have become in recent years.
Still, I occasionally run into modern data that proves way too hot in my gun.
Have a look at Barnes #1 for 6.5x55 ... curl your socks!.
I agree, some of the older books that I had, I didn't even give them away, but destroyed. I think the Hornady manual is a great book for freeloaders to start out with, but it makes me a little uneasy to see them only list velocity, not CUP or PSI.
Careful reloading, and watching for any signs of pressure is always best practice.
I actually like the 6.5X55 more than the 270win, but only as a handloaders cartridge. And a Mauser 98 in this cartridge is very nice.
Ivor
 
Well, you've been given a lot of good advice. It's all standard handloading precautions, don't push the envelope.

If you go onto the Norma Reloading site, they caution you about using high pressure loads in the 96 actions.

As far as the 98 actions go, they are quite tough. When the right powder and bullet combinations are used, a lot can be done to improve things. Improving velocities is another issue. It always means MORE PRESSURE.

The 6.5x55 has a fairly large case for the weight, diameter, length of the largest bullets available. the tight twist in the old Swedes doesn't help anything either. In the K98, you should be able to slightly increase powder volume for a very small increase in velocity but a large increase in pressures.

The cartridges built for the original rifles used a fast flake style powder and velocities were much more conservative than what we expect now. For its day, the 6.5x55 was a real hot rod. Maybe even ahead of its time.

Check out the velocities offered by other cartridges in the same medium case class. Their velocities are very similar and usually slower.

The 260Rem is a completely different cat and was designed for use in modern rifles, made of modern steels, using modern powder, bullets and cases.

You need to find which load is the most accurate in your particular rifle. Velocity increase would be nice but not always possible.

You also have another conundrum, Hornady is no longer making or marketing 160 grain bullets. You will just get used to how your rifle shoots them and there won't be any more, unless you scour the gun shows and garage sales.

Norma, RWS and maybe a few other European bullet makers are likely still making the heavy for length/diameter bullets. Getting them is a whole different story.

As for your action being weak because it's old??? Maybe, but I doubt it has changed much or at all from when it was made. I have a GEW98 action that is shooting full pressure 257 Ackley Improved with a 40 degree shoulder. Extremely accurate rifle but not much faster than a modern high pressure load for the 257 Roberts. A bore will only burn so much powder efficiently, until it reaches a saturation point. The rest just turns black and ends up on the ground or in a huge fireball at the muzzle. Back in the day our Gew98 actions were made, a lot really depends on when and where they were made. Just like the 1903 Springfield, the early actions were surface hardened and used a different metallurgy than just a few years later. Say 1910??? That doesn't mean the earlier actions were weaker, maybe just more brittle. Not likely to blow up during firing as crack when dropped on hard surfaces. They didn't have optical pyrometers back then either. A master gunsmith, passed on his experience to an apprentice on how to gauge temperature by judging the color of the red hot metal. The real issue with this was the lighting you were judging the color shade by. If it was darker, it appeared to be hotter than it was or if it was lighter, it appeared to be colder than it was. Somehow, they managed to get it pretty close most of the time.

I've always been impressed by how much can be gotten out of a small case capacity or medium case capacity and how little increase is gained by going to a magnum case with half to twice as much powder but twice the recoil.

I have a 6.5x55 in a M38, M96, k98, Tikka T3 and Winchester Mod 70. The powder charge I use in all of them, is 47 grains of H4831 with magnum primers and 140 SSTs. This load is likely a bit hot for the Swede actions but pressure signs aren't present. That doesn't mean you should immediately jump on this load for your rifle. In fact, you should start at 42 grains and work your way up. The 140gr SSTs are as long as most 160gr round nose bullets so they need a fast twist rate to stabilize.

H4831 is one of the better powder for the 6.5x55. Pretty hard to go wrong with it, even over Standard primers. One thing about it though, when the pressures start to climb at the max limits, they don't go up exponentially by weight or volume, they spike and do it very quickly beyond a certain point.

I've been told you can't get enough H4831 into a 6.5x55 case to cause problems. Don't believe it.
 
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Check the OAL (and bullet lenght) for each loads. This may well explain the load difference.
I personally don't sugget you to use a long OAL and low load density (don't go less than 85% of case filling ratio) and you'll be safe working your load up.
 
Depending on the length of your barrel (I am shooting out of a 26" and 29" barrel). Depending on availability of H4831, I would consider IMR 4350 and even H100v substitutes. Bearhunter has come up stout loads and has passed along his experience. It helps that the 6.5x55 cartridge is really quite flexible and will shoot well with various powder susbstitutes.
 
I've been told you can't get enough H4831 into a 6.5x55 case to cause problems. Don't believe it.
Well bearhunter, ^that^ bears repeating.

For me, Reloader 22, was MADE for 6.5x55.
Have yet to meet the Swede, commercial sporter or milsurp, that won't excell with 47-48 grains of this powder behind any good 140. That's a casefull, but not compressed in lapua brass.
Produces 2650 - 2675 fps from the 22.5" M38 barrel. 140 Amax or 139 Scenar preferred for precision. I seat mine out to .010" off the lands. That's around 3.200"oal for the M38's, which are much shorter throated than the looong M96's.
Do have to drop the charge back half a grain in summers heat though. The heat will boost pressures out the top of the node otherwise.
!/2 moa +- is normal ... consistently ... assuming the rifle is properly tuned and scoped.

Have had decades of fine shooting from that combo.

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Fed GM215m's in winter, BR2's and a half grain less powder when its hot out, is what works for me.
 
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I prefer either 42gr of N-204 or IMR4350 and a 156-160gr bullet in the Swedish 38 mauser.Many dead moose,deer and bear.Always an entrance + exit wound...........Harold
 
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