17 squirrel style cartridge

flandersander

flandersander

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I've had my mind on the little 17 squirrel lately. Problem for me is, it's built on the hornet case. I am working towards a savage switch barrel gun, and would love to have a real short, 17 squirrel esque, cartridge based on the 223 case. To my knowledge, for the 17 squirrel, you cut off the 22 hornet case and size, then fire form, neck turn, size and shoot. Is that an option with the 223 case?

The problem I'm having is, to my knowledge, you can't really shoot a hornet case out of a savage 10 action. Is there something available that I'm missing? Or would I have to have a custom reamer and dies made?
 
The Squirrel has been around in many different calibers (12-14-16-17-19-20-22-25 etc) for some time, Cooper chambers both the 17 and 22 versions, not sure about Dakota, in fact there is a Cooper 17 Squirrel for sale on the EE, the title is just "Coopers", I checked it out, looks good, he also has all the dies available. It requires, form and trim dies, also full length dies, Redding, Wilson and RCBS can supply them, probably in the $300-$400 range, and then they must be annealed and fire formed, fine if you like to spend a lot of time doing such. It is outclassed by the factory 17 Hornet and if you want a lot more power try the 17 Fireball that is based on the .222 / .223 case head. Wildcats are fun to play with, especially the little guys, did you check out the .17 Pee Wee based on the .30 Carbine cartridge? they are all time consuming to form and load, but that is what wildcats are all about.
 
Shorter than a 17 Fireball? not commercially, but check out the RCBS sight, they have an unbelievable number of Custom dies available. Better yet call them and describe exactly what you want, the tech guys are very friendly and helpful, there may very well be a "Super Short .17 Fireball" all ready in existence that they have made dies for in the past. These "Special" dies are manufactured on demand only and would be very expensive, and have a fairly long delivery. The 17 Squirrel holds about 8 grains (Remington Hornet cases hold a little more than Winchester) the 17 Fireball holds 20 gr +/ -, so you would want something that holds about 10 grains, add that to your specs when you call them.
 
Do yourself a favor... Reign in your enthusiasm and get the .17 Fireball... you'll thank me later, when you are shooting instead of cursing at brass...
 
As a fairly experienced wildcatter, I would say you would want to stay away from a super short .223. You would have to cut off the shoulder, leaving a straightwall case that you would then have to form a shoulder and neck on. This is extremely difficult to do without collapsing the case. The easiest way is difficult, which is to taper the case to the desired calibre and fireform; the difficulty in this case (pun?) is that the cartridge is so short, you would not likely have enough room to taper it to .17 prior to fireforming. I'm sure there is some way of doing it, because they did it with the 6mm Thermos Bottle, but I don't know how. It would be cool, though.
 
Okay, so I'm just thinking out my keester here, but what about necking down pistol cartridges? I was told about the 14 piss ant (14-25acp). Looking at 45acp, looks to have a case head only 0.007" larger than a 308. Would it then be possible to neck down a 45 acp case and stuff a 17 cal bullet in there? Or a 223 bolt head and a 9mm Luger case? Since 9mm is .394 and 223 is .378. That's a fair jump, but it wouldn't take much to make it fit. Thoughts?

Or am I back to the same issues with crushed cases as stated above?

I suppose I could load the fireball nice and light for the performance I'm after, but where's the fun in that?
 
brybenn said:
Look into the 17 mink. Performance wise its about perfect for you. Dies can bought at the woodchuck den in Ohio
Click to expand...


It really is. Problem is it uses the hornet case. It's just a longer squirrel. Unless there's a way to run a hornet case in a savage 10 action that I'm not aware of? I really wanted a mink sized cartridge, around 10-15 grains or so. I guess the fireball is only slightly bigger.

What do y'all think of the pistol cartridge idea?
 
I've seen a savage in 45 acp but necked down to a 17 would require custom dies and I think the case would 1 look ugly for sure and 2 necked down that far to provide a shoulder and neck I'm not sure the shape would be all that great for burning characteristics of such powders. I truly don't know. For some reason I thought you were using a model 25 savage my mistake for recommending the mink
 
Okay, so looking around, I do believe I may have found what I'm after. It's called 22 tcm. It's a cut off 223 case necked to 22 cal, designed to run in 1911 pistols. This means a guy could wildcat an oddball. Say, 22 tcm necked to 17 with a 35 or 40 degree shoulder? Cut off 223 brass, anneal, run through 22 tcm dies, trim, neck to 17, turn if necessary, fire form. After that, all I would need is a custom die set, and I'm off to the races. No?

Wow, seems like lots of work. Haha
 
Looks like the 22 tcm is a really new thing. But the 22 reed express is a little more used. A little easier to get dies and reamer for. So here's what I'm thinkin...

Cut off 223 rem brass
Anneal
Size to 22 RE
*neck turn*
Size again to 17RE
Then just neck size on subsequent firings, with regular trimming etc. as per usual.

The neck turn step is starred because I'm curious as to whether or not this is a necessary step. Could I just inform my reamer maker (assuming I would need one built) that I am resizing 223 brass and to give a generous neck. Yes? No?

Another question, if it does turn out I have to neck turn, do i turn em after sizing to 22 or wait until they are the 17 cal size?

As always, any input at all is much appreciated!
 
I have a question for you... have you ever used a cartridge that requires a 3-6 step process to make brass? I can tell you this, it gets old really fast... you are far better to choose an existing cartridge, with available brass, and load it up or down (probably down) to your preferred power level... you will spend more time shooting and less time piddling around at the workbench...

There are some that "like" piddling at work benches (an odd lot they are), but that sure isn't my thing and may not be yours either... every time I have convinced myself to take on one of these projects, it invariably gets sold in short order... But not until after I have wasted a lot of time and money. Just something to think about before you jump in.
 
Appreciate the input hoytcanon. I think I will be able to handle it. Like lots of people I have a hard time finding time to shoot. But I can easily spare a few minutes in the evening to prep some cases or make a little progress. Something to consider for sure though.
 
What about the .19 Badger by James Calhoon? It is the .30 Carbine necked down. Take a look at his website - it looks like an interesting little cartridge.
 
Went and checked out some factory ammo today, and I think I'll just load down some 17 fb ammo for quiet shooting. I'll save the major wildcatting when I want a really long range cal.
 
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