175 Gr sierra HPBT and varget

Daniel,
Yes our issue ammo is Norma match.I have chronied some and believe it or not it went from 2250-2550fps!Not exactly a good spread or velocity.Its shot from 24 inch barrel C3.
The wonkyness started at the 700m mound and went back to 900m.At that point some of the guys(mind you they were newer shooters) were having trouble holding a fig11.Lots of hits outside it on the 4 ft frame.At 700 you would see the noses tipped down when it went through the target.At 800-900 you could see the swirl do some strange stuff I can only attribute to being de-stablized,and a more definite nose down or even the odd keyhole.But they were still hitting the frame.
 
Longshot said:
Daniel,
Yes our issue ammo is Norma match.I have chronied some and believe it or not it went from 2250-2550fps!Not exactly a good spread or velocity.Its shot from 24 inch barrel C3.
Click to expand...

My gosh, the 2550fps is bad enough (perhaps you could figure out to live with if, if not happily). But a 300fps spread.... wow. That is shockingly bad. A reasonable expectation for good commercial match ammo is an extreme spread of about 50fps or better. An E.S. of 100fps is what you'd expect from white box blasting ammo. Three hundred fps is in the territory of dodgy surplus ammo that has been ill-treated...!

(BTW, I would call anyone who can hold every single shot on an 18" wide Fig. 11 at 900m, a champion shot....!)
 
rnbra-shooter said:
My gosh, the 2550fps is bad enough (perhaps you could figure out to live with if, if not happily). But a 300fps spread.... wow. That is shockingly bad. A reasonable expectation for good commercial match ammo is an extreme spread of about 50fps or better. An E.S. of 100fps is what you'd expect from white box blasting ammo. Three hundred fps is in the territory of dodgy surplus ammo that has been ill-treated...!

(BTW, I would call anyone who can hold every single shot on an 18" wide Fig. 11 at 900m, a champion shot....!)
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Yeah believe me no one was more shocked than me.Missing a fig 11 at 900m is one thing but missing it at 700 with a match type rifle is another providing you can dope the wind.Maybe those misses were missed wind calls.I don't know for sure.
 
Ok here are the pics of the groups I shot at 200m.No wind.

First was a comaprison group of both Norma Match and Lapua 167 Scenars.
suckerpunch001.jpg


Next are the groups with between 41-42 grain of varget.
suckerpunch002.jpg


42.5 -43.5
suckerpunch003.jpg

suckerpunch006.jpg


44-45.5
suckerpunch038.jpg

suckerpunch039.jpg

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Any help from the pros would be greatly appreciated.

I also seem to be having trouble with neck sizing.Once my cases are neck sized and trimmed,most of them will not fit into the chamber.The bolt won't close or is very very tight.What are your thoughts on what might be causing that?
 
I use 45gr of varget with the 175gr SMK, fed gold medal match brass, and fed210m primers and it has worked great at the BCRA shoot in two different rifles.
 
Anyone have any comments about what powder load to pursue?I was under the impression that flat groups like the 44 Gr Varget were what I was looking for,but some of the smaller ones are pretty tempting.
 
Any velocity readings?

If it was me, I'd chase 44gr & 45gr. The 44 for straight up initial group size and the appearance of very little vertical spread and the 45 because there is just that one shot that stretched the group. It would be nice if the 45 worked out because it should have a little extra umph to carry you the distance.

Usually when I have tight contests like that I let the extreme spread and initial standard deviation help guide me.

But I don't think you'd be wasting your bullets to load up 10 of each and see who wins.

PS - I'm no expert
 
44.0, 44.5 and 45.0 are probably worth learning more about (all the things that GSoD mentioned - including finding out the velocities). Note that all of these are shooting as good or better than the two different kinds of premium match ammo you fired.

Have you ever shot substantially better groups than these? For the rifle you describe (tuned 700 with Rock barrel) I would expect you to be able to shoot near-1/2-MOA 5-shot groups, rather than the ~1-MOA groups that you've been getting. There might be a problem somewhere in your system (rifle, scope, stock, etc) holding you back.
 
I have a couple questions.

What is your aiming mark for the target?
I don't see any aiming point to move back to from shot to shot? If you have shot out the aiming mark on each load that’s impressive I would move the crosshairs 1moa higher and use the smallest dot possible that way you can return to it each time.

What power of scope are you using? Are you confident there is no POA shift.

Do you have the chamber spec from the reamer you can share?

I am really surprised by the poor showing from Norma. I have shot two different lots 10 years apart and they easily bested 1/2 at 100. closer to 1/3 in both cases. My rife is a trued 700 with rock barrel as well.

From what you have shown the 44 seems to give the least vertical and I would play around with it increments of .2 to see where the OCW is 43.8 -44 -44.2-44.4

Thanks
Trevor
 
rnbra-shooter said:
44.0, 44.5 and 45.0 are probably worth learning more about (all the things that GSoD mentioned - including finding out the velocities). Note that all of these are shooting as good or better than the two different kinds of premium match ammo you fired.

Have you ever shot substantially better groups than these? For the rifle you describe (tuned 700 with Rock barrel) I would expect you to be able to shoot near-1/2-MOA 5-shot groups, rather than the ~1-MOA groups that you've been getting. There might be a problem somewhere in your system (rifle, scope, stock, etc) holding you back.
Click to expand...

I haven't really ever shot for group at 200m and kept track of sizes.So I guess this is a first.
I rebedded the rifle as soon as i got back from the range and it is good to go now.Might shoot it tomorrow if i get a chance to see if it made a difference.I also recut the crown so hopefully that will help as well.Now if i could only get this neck sizing conundrum sorted out.
 
Trevor60 said:
I have a couple questions.

What is your aiming mark for the target?
I don't see any aiming point to move back to from shot to shot? If you have shot out the aiming mark on each load that’s impressive I would move the crosshairs 1moa higher and use the smallest dot possible that way you can return to it each time.

What power of scope are you using? Are you confident there is no POA shift.

Do you have the chamber spec from the reamer you can share?

I am really surprised by the poor showing from Norma. I have shot two different lots 10 years apart and they easily bested 1/2 at 100. closer to 1/3 in both cases. My rife is a trued 700 with rock barrel as well.

From what you have shown the 44 seems to give the least vertical and I would play around with it increments of .2 to see where the OCW is 43.8 -44 -44.2-44.4

Thanks
Trevor
Click to expand...

These groups are for 200m.I've shot lots of groups with norma match that were sub moa at 100m.The aiming mark was a 1 inch black dot.I moved the POI with the turrets and wind otherwise a lot of the rounds would have landed on top of each other.I was using my 20x Mark 4 with TMR reticle.It is pretty new so I doubt its the scope.

Reamer I'm not sure of.Might have been an Obermayer.

I think I will have a look at both 44 and 45 gr and play with them a bit.i might also load some up with RL 17 and give that a shot.
 
Longshot said:
I also seem to be having trouble with neck sizing.Once my cases are neck sized and trimmed,most of them will not fit into the chamber.The bolt won't close or is very very tight.What are your thoughts on what might be causing that?
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Let's go over this step-by-step - at what point in the following sequence does a case become difficult to chamber?

1 - new piece of brass, loaded and freshly fired (does the fired brass re-chamber easily, or not?)

2 - fired brass, neck-sized. (BTW what kind of neck sizer are you using?)

3 - same brass, trimmed and chamfered.

3 - this brass primed, powdered and bulleted


Longshot said:
I also recut the crown so hopefully that will help as well.Now if i could only get this neck sizing conundrum sorted out.
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Do you know what to look for on the crown? If not, post photos here of the powder marks after you've fired enough rounds (10 or 20) to produce a visible "star" pattern on the crown. Unfortunately Varget is a fairly clean powder, it takes a fair few round before you can see the muzzle pattern well.
 
JonnyBender said:
I have a 700 in 5r milspec with 24" barrel. I find that 43grs of varget behind 175 hpbt is the most accurate of the loads I've tried, thats with an overall length of 2.800". I did try 44grs of varget and I find it's getting a little hot. I've heard that loading 44grs or more doesn't really give you any better accuracy just more recoil. More velocity doesn't always mean better grouping.

I've loaded some with 43 grs of varget with 175 hpbt with an overall length of 2.810, but I haven't tried those yet.

On the 6mmBR site some have tried 45grs of reloader 15 behind 175 hpbt. I loaded some but did try those one yet.

Go to this site and read up on this on this subject. www.tobystactical.com the main subject on that site is about the 700 5r milspec, but they also talk about loads.

My two cents


JonnyBender
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X2 my load exact
 
With my previous batch of varget, 44.0 grain and 46.0 grains were the distinct accuracy nodes (<1/2 MOA) for the 175 SMK's; 44.0 being a more consistent load. My new batch of varget really tightened up at 45.7 grains (I have not tried around 44 grains yet). A follow-up test found 45.8 to shoot slightly tighter groups than 45.7. My next test will be to from 45.7 to 46.0m within which I am confident I'll find a sweet spot.
 
You sound like you have the same build as I do. Did you get yours from a guy on the east coast?

The scope is good 20x should allow you to hold tight. If you can maybe look for a 1/2 inch dot (1/4 moa at 200) to see if that helps shrink the groups vertical. What we are looking for is the same aiming point to eliminate as much shooter error as possible.

Are you jumping or seating the bullets to mag length.

Brass not fitting that part puzzles me.
1x firing should work fine and if it didn't you would see HUGH pressure signs blown primers, plunger marks, and or an identifiable expansion ring near the base of the brass.
What is your trim length?
have you cleaned the chamber area recently.

Trevor
 
44.0gr varget with CCI BR2 in Lapua brass gives me 2600 fps. With Norma brass I need 44.5 to get the same velocity. Looking back 43.0 gr grouped best at 100-200m but was slower than I wanted for reaching 900m.
 
Longshot said:
I also seem to be having trouble with neck sizing.Once my cases are neck sized and trimmed,most of them will not fit into the chamber.The bolt won't close or is very very tight.What are your thoughts on what might be causing that?
Click to expand...

I didn't see any parameters of your load except the powder you used.

The difficulty chambering is a by product of pressure and the case stretching because of this.

The simple solution is to get a body die and bump the brass to fit.

Also, check to ensure you have good contact from both lugs to the action. If there is poor contact, the bolt can spring allowing the case to bulge at high pressures.

http://www.mysticprecision.com/htm/rifle.php

Hope this helps.

Are the primers flattened? What type of primer are you using?

Jerry
 
mysticplayer said:
I didn't see any parameters of your load except the powder you used.

The difficulty chambering is a by product of pressure and the case stretching because of this.

The simple solution is to get a body die and bump the brass to fit.

Also, check to ensure you have good contact from both lugs to the action. If there is poor contact, the bolt can spring allowing the case to bulge at high pressures.

http://www.mysticprecision.com/htm/rifle.php

Hope this helps.

Are the primers flattened? What type of primer are you using?

Jerry
Click to expand...

Norma match brass,fed 210 match primer,175 MK over Varget.
What exactly does a body die do?Is it the same as a FL sizing die?
 
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