1851 navy questions

[jdawg]

Hi guys I have recently recieved a pietta 1851 navy .44 brass framed revolver as a wedding present from my best man and another university friend ( i know right I have the best friends) never owning a Bp gun before I have a few questions.

Powder how much and what type? Should I be using true Bp or should I use pyrodex or 777 ? Advantages and disadvantages of all three ? Being that it is brass framed and nickel plated should I be using a reduced load? I currently have a powder flask with a 24 gr spout that is labeled for 44.

Patches yes or no? I've seen videos where people have used them and where they haven't, what is the general consensus on this issue.

Lube what are people using these days is Crisco still the norm or is there something better now?

Bullets what to use and where to find them.

Cleaning do people actually put these things in the dishwasher ? How far do I have to take the gun down after shooting? What is the best product to use for cleaning I've heard hot soapy water?

 

[cyclone]

I'm interested too - just got a pair of 1851's in .44 calibre as well , though certainly not as amazing-looking as yours !....

Congrats on the wedding, by the way !...

 

[Skinny 1950]

Very nice looking gun congratulations and welcome to the dark side.
I have a Pietta 1851 .44 cal. with a steel frame and shoot 24 grains of Goex FFFG with some corn meal on top to fill the chamber to within about 1/8 inch of the top. A round ball .454 inch in diameter is placed on top and rammed down hard until it is flush with the top of the chamber, a mixture of vegetable shortening and a pinch of bees wax is smeared over all the loaded chambers to prevent chain-fires. A #11 cap is placed on the nipples of all the chambers and it is ready to go.
You will find the recoil with 24 grains is mild and it won't damage your brass frame,so have fun with it.
Clean up is with hot soapy water, dry quickly and follow with generous amounts of gun oil.
Normally you only need to take off the barrel and cylinder to clean everything that you can see,total disassembly is only required when something goes wrong.
Here is a picture of some of my open top guns:

 

[MauserMike]

Very nice looking gun congratulations and welcome to the dark side.
I have a Pietta 1851 .44 cal. with a steel frame and shoot 24 grains of Goex FFFG with some corn meal on top to fill the chamber to within about 1/8 inch of the top.

Note, that with that amount of powder and the corn meal filler, it is safe but with black powder you ALWAYS ALWAYS seat the ball all the way down on top of the powder with NO air space.

Shoot real black powder FFFg, forget about the substitutes.

I clean mine with hot soapy water. Dishwasher? HORRORS.

 

[leadslinger]

Reduced loads starting around 24 grains of FFF in real black OR pyrodex (NO 777), felt wad, ram wad down, then using a dollar store mustard container fill chamber to about 1/8" below the top with cornmeal.
Install and seat ball.
Up to 30 grains works nice as well.
Your Gun,hands and face are not a sloppy mess after shooting it
(like when using crisco to seal chambers) and the wad elliminates the any chances of chain fires.
Corn meal and wad keep the crud in bore to a minimum.
Most guys i know that shoot cap-n-ball in cowboy do it this way so they can have the gun run a whole match (50 to 60 shots) with the odd re-oiling after a stage or two if levers get dry. (balistol lube or break free stays runny longer)
Buy a 40mm hollow punch, sharpen it with a dremmel tool, and buy a sheet of felt
(durofelt.com) to make your own wads.
Microwave some bore butter in a small dish to dip your wads in.
I have run 3 capNballs for several years in matchs like this.

 

[Skinny 1950]

I agree that real black powder is the way to go, I have tried Jim Shockey's Yukon Gold and Triple Seven and have had far less problems with the fouling inside the gun. I am going to try the wads as I have some left over from reloading .45 Colt cartridges...I am thinking they may act as a gas check and improve accuracy as well as reduce barrel fouling.
Thanks for the tip leadslinger.

 

[cyclone]

Why all the 777 hate ?....

 

[Sharps '63]

jdawg

Congrats on your beautiful '51! We're all envious.

Find a copy of Lyman's BP book or better yet, Mike Venturino on shooting the Colt single actions.
Our CAS club hosts an annual cap & ball only match, this year year requiring BP in long guns as well.
As for using any kind of filler - fuggedaboudit! It's an ingenious solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Why bother with another unnecessary step. Powder reduction is not a factor when recoil is already minimal.

Three of us from my club recently shot the 'Frontiersman' class at the Hefley Creek, BC 20th anniversary shoot. We placed 1st, 2nd and 3rd in the class. None of us use any kind of filler. The guns we shot included the .44 '47 Walker, .36 '51 Navy's and Remington .44s. None of us (or anyone else shooting in the class) used fillers. That for a match with 100 pistol rds total - 10 stages requiring 10 rds pistol per stage.

As for lube, most of the commercial lubes are too soft, melting easily in the heat of the day. We use a mixture of beeswax and olive oil, making a stiff compound easily applied with a popsicle stick.
I shot with a fellow in our possee who shot .44 Walkers, using NO over ball lube! No chain fires (they happen at the other end of the cylinder) and no functining issues. Works for him .....

Cleaning is a must and there are several good commercial compounds available. Hot, soapy water is one of the best, followed by a good water displacing oil. I pull the cones (nipples) every time, except when shooting again the next day.
Cap & ball guns are not for the lazy shooter and require a little effort to keep them running well.

 

[DEZ]

Why all the 777 hate ?....

777 should not be compressed the base of the bullet should just touch the powder or dangerous pressure spikes can occur to try to seat a ball in a cap and ball revolver with out compressing the load is just about impossible

 

[tacfoley]

NO patches in a revolver.

Patches are used for round ball in a rifle or smooth-bore long arm.

tac

 

[Sharps '63]

???

Where did this magical 1/8" dimension between the top of the ball and the cylinder come from? Bullet/ball jump to the forcing cone is no more an issue than it is when shooting .38 Spls. in a .357 Mag cylinder.

With any reasonable charge, with or without a filler, the loading rammer will seat the ball with compression atop the powder charge. Whatever the remaining dimension, topping it off with lube completes the process.

After two-three rds, look at the front of your cylinder. There is precious little lube left on the remaining chambers, the heat and flash of the discharge melting the lube and blowing it along the front of the frame and the barrel. The softer the lube, the more melt, although even the stiffest lubes don't last long.

 

[leadslinger]

No stinking patch's LOL
Over the years I have read a few reloading books on the subject
of cap-n-ball loading.
They have general similarities as well also having their own opinions
and way of doing things.
Take it all in and try a few things for yourself to see what works for you.
But dont use stinking patch's or 777.
For me i didnt see the use of wasting xtra powder on full loads
just to shoot an 16" steel target at 10 metres when a reduced load would be fairly accurate for that distance.
(and dont get me started on over hyped powder like "shockeys Gold")

 

[Skinny 1950]

Where did this magical 1/8" dimension between the top of the ball and the cylinder come from? Bullet/ball jump to the forcing cone is no more an issue than it is when shooting .38 Spls. in a .357 Mag cylinder.

If you fill the chamber to the top with powder or filler or wads you won't be able to ram the ball down flush with the front of the cylinder...so leave 1/8 (aprox) so you can seat the ball.

 

[leadslinger]

I might also add that playing with a powder charge will effect your point of impact.
So at short distance at big targets not an issue, but if you want to tighten your group,
play with charges till you find the one your gun likes.
My .44 likes 30grains of fff to shoot a 6" margarine lid at 8 metres.
This was shooting off hand, but tighters groups can be had off the bench.
Not bad for recoil as well.
Keep in mind these are not bullseye guns.
With that charge you could just use a lubed felt wad and no cornmeal filler.
One thing i remember one book saying was that the grease on the end
was to prevent chain fires, while another said chain fire risk came from the nipple end.
It was mentioned that after firing the cap should be somewhat intact still on the nipple.
This has never happened to me on any of my 3 cap n balls using at least 3 different
brands of primers.
Mine are always split and flared out, barely in place then get flicked off when cocking gun.
A friend of mine said that would have been true a few years ago
but not now with the paper thin primers everyone makes now.
No mention that the lube on bullet end was for lubing bore to keep things soft.
A tight fitting lubed felt wad works well for me.
I have as well as others played with loads in my .36's and .44's using ff as well as fff.
I have read where after doing a fff charge that a filler charge of ff was placed on top.
A good forum just for this subject is muzzleloadingforum.com

 

[Sharps '63]

Ooops ...

Skinny - thanks. I misread the earlier comment about leaving a chamber space.

Playing with various loads will help with shot placement, but not much, in my experience. Until you get to the level of the 50 gr Dragoon charge and the 60 gr Walker charge, full loads in cap & ball guns are quite manageable.
Ladies have had no trouble shooting my 3rd Model Dragoon due to the massive size; the weight being more of a concern than recoil or muzzle blast. Once accustomed to it, they really have fun.

The guys in our club love their cap & ball guns as they're as 'Cowboy' as it gets!
When you shoot in a possee alongside someone with a 'pop gun' load in .38, the comparison is ludicrous - "Pop - ding" as opposed to "Boom! - Clang!"

Granted it doesn't take much powder (smokeless or BP) to hit a steel target in a CAS match, but - Shoot 'Cowboy' or go home! ;>)

 

[smellie]

Beautiful piece.

Congrats on the wedding.

Original military charge was 18 grains.

Brass frames DO shoot loose. They shoot looser, faster, with heavy charges.

Cross-firing can be VERY dangerous. Worst I saw was 5 rounds with 1 pull, from an 1860; bullets were all over the place, including 1 cut in half by the key. Reason: no cylinder lube at the FRONT.

The old-time percussion caps were a lot less power than the modern ones.

Just trying to help. Sorry if I haven't read all the books. I started shooting these things in 1958... long before the Books were written.

Do have fun!
.

 

[Sharps '63]

???

Smellie

Occasionally we have a hard time igniting powder from the nipple end, so how do you account for a muzzle flash getting past a swadged lead ball in the chamber? It couldn't be better sealed if you poured in molten lead.

I have a hard time wrapping my head around the physics of that, especially since I just shot a major 10 stage (10 pistol rds per stage) match with a fellow cap & ball shooter shooting a pair of .44 Walkers - NO lube over the chambers!
He shot well and didn't suffer any chain fires. He changed cylinders, having two spares, charged and ready to go. His load was 55 grs ffg.

As for lube acting as a bore lubricant, hogwash! I pulled the cylinders of my Remington .44s during a lunch break, and the bores showed evidence of some lube about half way down the bores from the forcing cone. The rest of the bores looked like a sewer pipe.

Much of the lube gets blown away with the first shot. Subsequent shots obliterate the rest.

 

[drm3m]

For what it is worth, the D.C. Sage cartridge packets shown below indicate
18 grs. for .44 cal Colt's Army pistol and 17 grs. for .36 cal Colt's Navy pistol.

As smellie suggested in another thread this was what both sides used during the CW.
Are current BP shooters using more than they need...I am sure that I don't know.

These cartridge packets do not belong to me.

I personally would not overload these old guys if I was going to shoot them....which I won't.
Perhaps not as critical with the modern guns?

David

 

[jdawg]

Wow thanks guys what a great resource we have here. It seems the loading procedures are as varied as the shooters themselves. I went to the city today and picked up balls and some traditions lube because I wasn't sure where to get beeswax and figured I'd try it grabbed some patches as well just to try them. For powder I was able to find pyrodex p so I picked that up, they had the pellets as well but that just doesn't seem right to me, does anybody use them? But with all my purchasing I forgot one important piece the caps, so the wife is picking those up on Thursday

 

[cyclone]

For the 777 haters , any comments on Pyrodex ?.....