1859 or 63 sharps question
- Thread starter m1978
- Start date
Two of my '63s are Shilohs, a SRC and a Military Rifle, both .50s. They have a less cavernous powder chamber and use the Conant gas seal rather than a sleeve.
I've known Ped owners and they all wish they had Shiloh products. The sleeve causes problems.
I've known Ped owners and they all wish they had Shiloh products. The sleeve causes problems.
From my very limited knowledge of the guns; I saw one Shilo gun and it had both the face plate on the breach block and perhaps a chamber sleeve. I am a bit fuzzy about the sleeve because I think someone on this forum said that the Shilo guns did not have a sleeve. The Shilo gun that I looked at had bad gas cutting on the face of the breach plate and if the gun did in fact have the bushing, the gas cutting was probably caused by the bushing not moving when the gun was shot. The owner was not aware that the gun might have a sleeve. When I rebuilt my 1863 I copied more or less the Pedersoli system with both a bushing and a face plate except that I did not use any O rings. What I have to work on is how to lubricate the bushing so that it will move and will come out easily after several shots have been fired
I suspect that the reason that the original guns went to the sleeve and face plate system was that they could be replaced very quickly and very easily. The earlier slant breach models did not have that feature and once gas cutting and leaking started it would have been much harder to repair. Since the breach block was missing on my gun, I can only guess at what the face plate looked like but the barrel definitely did have a bushing (which I had to bore out)
cheers mooncoon
I'm glad that we've established that Shiloh '63s DO NOT utilize a sleeve. Either that, or I own and/or have owned the only Shiloh '63s that do not.
No, you don't have brass cases to clean (although Pedersoli sells them for their rifles), but you do have a breech block to disassemble and clean thoroughly after EVERY use or you wind up with a frozen block. The flash hole clean out screw is frequently over looked and it seizes in place. Likewise the gas plate.
Instead you have the joy of preparing paper cases, a task that makes loading and cleaning brass cases seem simpler by comparison. Lots of different approaches to this, the easiest being Hahn tubes IF your rifle is a .54. Hahn doesn't make them for a .50. Check you tube for videos on preparing paper cases.
The Conant system used by Shiloh is less than perfect in that the gas seal isn't all that great. The gas plate doesn't really slide forward as intended and you will eventually suffer cavitation of the gas plate. This is accentuated by using loose powder, according to Shiloh. These are replaceable but require careful fitting and they are hard as hell. Ask me how I know ...... I haven't tried the rubber 'O' ring trick, but I will.
The '63s are a lot of gun and shoot well within their limitations. You will not be winning any BPCR matches with them. If you don't like the idea of shooting and cleaning cap & ball revolvers, the percussion '63s are NOT the rifle for you!
In the era, the percussion Sharps rifles were head and shoulders above the rifled muskets of the day insofar as rapidity of fire. As a skirmish rifle in the hands of Berdan's Sharpshooters, it was unbeatable.
It also has the distinction of being the ONLY non-British carbine design ever considered for adoption by the British, five cavalry regiments being armed with them. These were the earlier '59 slant breech models with a poor gas seal but they gave good service in India. It was also the only carbine they ever tested with a two piece stock.
The first thing the Brits did was remove the pellet primer and tape priming mechanisms, replacing them with standard musket nipples. They also had the calibre increased to .577 in order to use P53 Enfield bullets.
The major complaint was burned cuffs on expensive uniforms due to the flash around the breech block.
By the time the improved 'New Model '63' (vertical breech) came along, the Brits had adopted British pattern carbines, cancelling contracts with Robbins & Lawrence (marketers for Sharps), nearly forcing them into bankruptcy. The onset of the American Civil War saved them.
No, you don't have brass cases to clean (although Pedersoli sells them for their rifles), but you do have a breech block to disassemble and clean thoroughly after EVERY use or you wind up with a frozen block. The flash hole clean out screw is frequently over looked and it seizes in place. Likewise the gas plate.
Instead you have the joy of preparing paper cases, a task that makes loading and cleaning brass cases seem simpler by comparison. Lots of different approaches to this, the easiest being Hahn tubes IF your rifle is a .54. Hahn doesn't make them for a .50. Check you tube for videos on preparing paper cases.
The Conant system used by Shiloh is less than perfect in that the gas seal isn't all that great. The gas plate doesn't really slide forward as intended and you will eventually suffer cavitation of the gas plate. This is accentuated by using loose powder, according to Shiloh. These are replaceable but require careful fitting and they are hard as hell. Ask me how I know ...... I haven't tried the rubber 'O' ring trick, but I will.
The '63s are a lot of gun and shoot well within their limitations. You will not be winning any BPCR matches with them. If you don't like the idea of shooting and cleaning cap & ball revolvers, the percussion '63s are NOT the rifle for you!
In the era, the percussion Sharps rifles were head and shoulders above the rifled muskets of the day insofar as rapidity of fire. As a skirmish rifle in the hands of Berdan's Sharpshooters, it was unbeatable.
It also has the distinction of being the ONLY non-British carbine design ever considered for adoption by the British, five cavalry regiments being armed with them. These were the earlier '59 slant breech models with a poor gas seal but they gave good service in India. It was also the only carbine they ever tested with a two piece stock.
The first thing the Brits did was remove the pellet primer and tape priming mechanisms, replacing them with standard musket nipples. They also had the calibre increased to .577 in order to use P53 Enfield bullets.
The major complaint was burned cuffs on expensive uniforms due to the flash around the breech block.
By the time the improved 'New Model '63' (vertical breech) came along, the Brits had adopted British pattern carbines, cancelling contracts with Robbins & Lawrence (marketers for Sharps), nearly forcing them into bankruptcy. The onset of the American Civil War saved them.
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Lonesome Donkey
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Central Alberta
Many years ago, I owned an 1863 Shiloh Sharps and a cavalry sling with the large clip.
I never got around to getting a bullet mold, so I never even fired it once.
Beautiful gun though.
I never got around to getting a bullet mold, so I never even fired it once.
Beautiful gun though.
One of my '63s is a SRC with gorgeous dark, figured walnut. That saddle ring/bar is a real PITA for a left hander (I'm not), just as they are on a Winchester carbine. They look cool, but rattle and mark the gun up.
I understand the need for them on a cavalry carbine, but have never understood them on a lever action rifle.
I understand the need for them on a cavalry carbine, but have never understood them on a lever action rifle.
Lonesome Donkey
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Central Alberta
Originally, I think Winchester kept hoping for a military contract for the cavalry.
Afterwards, it was handy if you wanted to use a leather thong tied into a loop to hang a carbine off your saddle horn.
There is no factual historical/photographic data to support the claim that Cowboys carried carbines in that fashion. Can you imagine a working Cowboy riding hell for leather with a carbine bouncing round that way? It would be a PITA for both him and the horse.
Those of us who had Red Ryder BB guns thought that it was way cool and that it was just the way it was in the Old West.
A saddle ring just rattles and wears the finish of the rifle it' mounted on. That's why it's missing on a lot of older SRCs.
Those of us who had Red Ryder BB guns thought that it was way cool and that it was just the way it was in the Old West.
A saddle ring just rattles and wears the finish of the rifle it' mounted on. That's why it's missing on a lot of older SRCs.
I just watched a "Forgotten Weapons" video of Ian interpreting and shooting an original Sharps "slant breech" infantry rifle.
This rifle had the "sliding sleeve" in use at the time (now seized) and the pellet priming mechanism (now non-functioning). When he fires it, you notice his "flinch" reaction, not something he is known for. He forgot that due to the poor gas seal, there was going to be a "flash" which shows up well when he runs the slo-mo footage.
This is the flash I mentioned that burned so many expensive Victorian cavalry uniforms and caused the brass hats at Whitehall to reject the slant breech Sharps as "unsuitable" for adoption.
This rifle had the "sliding sleeve" in use at the time (now seized) and the pellet priming mechanism (now non-functioning). When he fires it, you notice his "flinch" reaction, not something he is known for. He forgot that due to the poor gas seal, there was going to be a "flash" which shows up well when he runs the slo-mo footage.
This is the flash I mentioned that burned so many expensive Victorian cavalry uniforms and caused the brass hats at Whitehall to reject the slant breech Sharps as "unsuitable" for adoption.
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The "New Model '63" vertical breech with the Conant gas seal largely solved the problem of the earlier slant breech models, but too late for the Brits to consider it for adoption.
The flash could also occur if loose powder from the shearing of the paper cartridge base accumulated in the nooks and crannies of the action, igniting on firing the round.
The problem with the current Shiloh models is powder fouling that causes the action to seize. There are various remedies and Charlie Hahn in the US offers solutions. I occasionally squirt a little cleaning solution on the breech to free it up. Berdan's Sharpshooters used their canteens and also p!ssed on the actions of their rifles to free them up.
If true, that's quite a feat for a man under fire!
The flash could also occur if loose powder from the shearing of the paper cartridge base accumulated in the nooks and crannies of the action, igniting on firing the round.
The problem with the current Shiloh models is powder fouling that causes the action to seize. There are various remedies and Charlie Hahn in the US offers solutions. I occasionally squirt a little cleaning solution on the breech to free it up. Berdan's Sharpshooters used their canteens and also p!ssed on the actions of their rifles to free them up.
If true, that's quite a feat for a man under fire!
