1885 Rebellion revolver

GrantR

GrantR

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Here are a couple of photos of the.45 caliber Colt Model 1878 Double Action I recently acquired, believed to be one of 1,001 revolvers of this configuration purchased by the Canadian Department of Militia & Defence at the outbreak of the North West Rebellion in 1885 .....

(Click to enlarge.)


The majority of the revolvers acquired by Canada were never marked in any distinctive way, and no completer record of serial numbers is known, so it is not possible to definitively confirm Canadian military provenance for most of them. However, based on the serial numbers of the thirty or so known examples of these revolvers which eventually got stamped with an "M.D." mark, it is known that they were all manufactured in 1883, 1884 or early 1885. Mine was made in early 1884, is the correct configuration for a Canadian Militia revolver, and was located in Canada, so it "fits". I am awaiting a Colt Factory Letter which will hopefully confirm that it was shipped to Hartley & Graham, the New York outfitter that supplied them to the Militia Department.

For anyone who might be interested in additional information, here are scans of the entire chapter on the Canadian Militia revolvers from "Colt's Double Action Revolver, Model 1878", by Don Wilkerson:


 
That is a fine looking revolver Grant, an amazing bit of history even if it isn't CDN military. I hope your letter confirms its' provenance.
 
Beautiful looking '78 you got there, Grant. I've got a similar one manufactured in 1883 that I just haven't had the time to research or letter yet. I suspect (and hope), as you do for yours, that mine has early Canadian military history. Irks me beyond belief that it isn't an antique.
Please keep us updated when you are further enlightened.
Blair
 
Grant, a very nice piece of history you got there. I also really like your photo graphs ... a pleasure to enjoy.
 
Ive always loved those 78's...If i could ever find one in 41 colt or 44 russian I wouldnt hesitate.:D

Great looking Colt!
 
Grant...since you have the book...

What calibers were the 1878's made in?

I have a line on one that is marked "44 cal" Would this be a 44R or a 44-40?

Does your book say how the different calibers were marked?
 
Sportee,
TBOCF lists the 44s as 44 Russian,44 German Government, 44 S&W and 44-40.
The only markings I can see in this book are 44 CF and 44 WCF.
Good luck,
Blair
 
Nice gun Grant!
Joe salter had a couple of them just like your beauty.

All the ones ive seen marked 44 Were in fact 44 40
I have had ones in 455 Elly
and ive seen them in 41 Long colt
And in 476
But never 44 Russian tho im sure there is some made they would be Rare.
 
Summary of information gleaned from Don Wilkerson's book:

When introduced in 1878, I gather the revolver was only available chambered in .45 Colt and .450 Boxer .... presumably because the same bore would do for both, and only the cylinder chambering would differ .... The caliber marking at first was stamped only on the forward flare of the triggerguard, left side, but later was moved to the barrel. The marking on mine is "45 CAL", ....

- .44-40 chambering for the M'78 was offered starting in October of 1880, with the caliber marking of "44 CF" or (later) "44 CAL" .....

- Starting in 1881, a number of revolvers were apparently produced chambered for .44 Russian. Generally shown on Colt ledgers as ".44 S&W" or ".44 Russian" ... One revolver in Wilkerson's survey of known specimens is stamped "44 RUSSIAN CTG" on the left side of the barrel, though it also bears British proof marks, so the cartridge designation may have been added when proofed in Britain, to comply with their legal requirements. Another specimen he reviewed, one of two shipped to Italy in 1891, was stamped "44 S&W" on the barrel.

- .38 Colt chambering came on the scene in 1885. They were entered in Colt records as either ".38 Colt" or ".38 Cal", and the barrel marking seems to have been "38 COLT"

- .41 Colt was added to the M'78 line in 1887 (and apparently the revolvers would accept the "Long", "Short" and "Extra Short" versions of the cartridge. Most barrels have "41M" stamped on the bottom of the barrel just ahead of the frame, where it is hidden by the head of the cylinder pin. Barrel markings of "41 COLT" have been noted

- The first recorded M'78 chambered in .32-20 was shipped in June 1888, and listed as ".32 Cal. Rifle". Barrel marking was "32 W.C.F.". with most barrels also being marked "32" on the bottom rear, as noted above ... (There is also the possibility that a few revolvers were chambered in either .32 Colt or .32 S&W ...)

- .38-40 chambering was introduced in 1888. Because this cartridge is really just a necked-down .44-40, and the bullets are actually .40/.41 caliber, I gather the same barrels were used as on .41 Colt revolvers, with many of them bearing the same "41M" marking mentioned above. The caliber marking on the barrel was "38 W.C.F."

- Two revolvers are also recorded as having been made in .22 caliber ....

Various revolvers were also shipped to Britain chambered for British cartridges, namely:

- .450 Boxer (triggerguard marking "45 CAL" over "B" - but apparently a few early .45 Colt revolvers have also been noted with this marking ...) No specific barrel marking mentioned.

- .455 Caliber. Triggerguard marking of "455 CAL" over "E", and some barrel markings also noted: "455 CAL"

- .476 Enfield. Triggerguard and barrel markings of "476 CAL" have been noted.
 
Ive come accross a few 44 russian models on auction sites. Ive never found one in 41 colt (which is what i would really like). The guy with the model i have been looking at tells me the mark on the frame is "44 cal".

He's not sure if 44-40, 44R or anything else and I dont think he's about to start tracking down cartridges to see what will chamber.

Are there any sources for parts for these things?

BTW: I completely forgot...the guy cant check the cylinder as it is missing one...Thats why it is at such a good price. The barrel has no markings on it - probably worn off. It seems to me that '78 cylinders are hard to come by. Do 1889 or SAA cylinders fit?? I understand neither will be a drop in but are the diameters/lengths the same? could a person modify one without too much trouble?
 
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rickruddell said:
Grant - nice gun! Hope that it shoots as good as it looks?
Click to expand...

Rick - It groups very nicely! (Unfortunately, it prints rather "off" point of aim at usual present-day pistol ranges because, just like the Single Action Colts of the day, it was actually designed and sighted to be "on" at 50 yards ..... I hope to use it at least once in a while in Cowboy Action shooting under NCOWS rules, if I can accustom myself to compensating for that. (Needless to say, I'm not about to alter the front sight blade!)

Sportee - yes, parts (original and reproduction) are available from at least one source:
http://www.coltparts.com/
(Note that in the Model 1878 list there is a highlighted link for "Cylinder", but the link seems to be broken. I guess you'd have to contact them about that.)

This place carries a few springs:
http://www.wisnersinc.com/pistols/COLTpistol.htm

I'm not sure whether a SAA cylinder could be adapted to work in a Model 1878 .... As you say, apparently the lengths and diameters are the same, but the SA ratchet is machined integral with the cylinder, whereas the differently shaped DA ratchet is a separate piece, press fit into place. Possibly the SA ratchet could be machined out, and an 1878-type ratchet made and fitted The SAA cylinder bushing is longer, but apparently otherwise the same, so presumably could be shortened. Even if all this could be accomplished there would be an "appearance" issue, because a Model 1878 cylinder has no stop notches on the outer surface like a SA cylinder has. (The M'78 cylinder is indexed and stabilized by the cylinder pawl and a secondary pawl which also engages the rear ratchet, rather than a cylinder stop rising through the lower frame like the SA revolver.)

I'm going to PM you with scans of the three page coverage of "Cylinders" in the "General Components and Characteristics" section of Don Wilkerson's book, so you can consider the possibilities for yourself.)

dar.jpg


I highly recommend this book to anyone with a Model 1878 revolver, by the way - it is over 400 pages long, very good quality (hardbound, glossy paper), well illustrated (including a number of colour plates) and chock-full of information. Not cheap at US$85.00, but worth it in my view. Available from "source" (Carol, Don's widow) here:
http://collectcolt.com/?page_id=19

I bought my copy from Carol, but here's an Amazon listing (at the same price) with the "Look Inside" feature:
http://www.amazon.com/Colts-Double-Action-Revolver-Model/dp/0961787643
 
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Colt parts had serveral Cylinders for sale used awhile back BUT there in the NO calibers like 45 colt or 44 40 so that dont help you.


I agree with Grant the Way a 1878 Times the cylinder to the bore is so Diffrent to a SAA colt it would be a nightmare if not imposible to do, useing a SAA cylinder.
Besides there about the same price if i remember right the 1878 cylinders were like $250 for a decent one.
Cylinders and Barrels are Restricted parts to.
Numrich wont ship them to Canada.
Smaller parts seem fine tho as long as there not over the $500 Limit.
 
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The one in your Link Rick uses the SAA type cylinder with the Notches cut out in the Side.
Unless i was looking at the Wrong one.
Also im sure they would Never attempt to Copy Masons Timeing set up on the Orignal 1878s as its a bit of a tricky set up to say the least.
These Revolvers were turned down by the US Army because of 7 miss fires when testing the guns outa 100 trys.
tho there were lots bought privately by Officers who still liked them.

My guess is them Replicas have a way better Action.
Just try and Fix the Loading gate spring if it ever Busts on and Orignal 1878 ya cant Buy em. The loading gate Helps with the Cylinder timeing has a little Bushiung in it that stops the cylinder from rolling back after fireing and recocking the gun.
Its VERY Important that the Loading gate Spring works good!

I know i have made one from a Sawzal blade and it took 10 Hrs to make it perfect like the Orignal.
Once there working they are great Revolvers tho, im not putting them down.
I liked mine. :)
 
Unfortunately, the USFA "Omni-Potent" isn't actually a replica of the Model 1878 Double Action. Rather, it is a standard Colt Single Action 'clone' with a re-shaped gripframe intended to make it look rather like a Model 1878 - in much the same way as the reproduction "Lightning" and "Thunderer" pistols are the standard single action design with a birdshead gripframe intended to make them resemble the Colt Model 1877 Double Action design ....

(I see that USFA indicate that this design is SASS-approved, for which it must be a Single Action.)

For comparison, here are images of a Model 1878 (top) and a USFA Omni-Potent:

Model1878.jpg


USFAOmni-Potent.jpg


The differences are readily apparent ..... in particular, note that the USFA revolver has the single action type of cylinder, with stop notches on the outer circumference, even though they have lengthened the flutes to make it more closely resemble a M'78 cylinder. So, regretably, it would really be no easier to adapt components from this revolver for a M'78 than components from a Colt SA. Also, unfortunately, the Omni-Potent is only offered in .45 Colt, .44 WCF, .44 Special, .38 WCF, .38 Special and .32 WCF.

Interestingly, the name they have chosen is obviously another aspect of the attempt to link this revolver to the Model 1878 ..... one of the biggest original retailers of Colt M'78 revolvers sold them marked with the name "Omnipotent" .....
 
Well I decided to resurrect this old tread to show off my new find .
Just acquired this 1878 DA 45Lc in the right configuration to be a
Canadian Colt just waiting on colt letter to confirm shipment to H&G to start my research
Bore is great timing fantastic a real nice piece with original Nickle
P8050002.jpg
 
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