1889 Lee Metford

[dimon]

Good day to all.

Not entirely sure if I am in the right forum(perhaps it belongs to antique forum)... But here it is: just came back from hunting trip with my friends and besides moose meat this little rifle came home with me...Lee Metford Mark I what it seems, made in 1889 with 3 digit serial number. Can anybody please tell me what does DP marking on top of the receiver and barrel mean and also, can anyone decipher the butt disk stampings and markings on the buttstock??... I know there is a wealth of information available on this forum...

 

[Dyspnea]

I could be wrong, but dp usually mean drill practice (drill rifle) not suitable to fire, for some reason.

 

[LawrenceN]

DP does indeed stand for "Drill Purpose". I was told that it doesn't have to mean that the rifle is unsafe to fire, but some were DP'd just because of age. The two broad arrows point-to-point indicate that it was released from government stock as surplus. On the butt disc, the "B" could be B company of a regiment with the soldiers or rack number. I'm mystified by the holes drilled into the divider. If nothing else, you have a valuable parts rifle for someone who has a bubba'd Lee Metford that is still shootable. I don't know what, if anything, it cost you, but it's a very nice score. It should clean up nicely with some TLC. Good for you man.

 

[greyman441]

DO NOT FIRE IT. DP means drill purpose. Not all but most of DP marked rifles are worn out rifles that were used for training only. I would have a gunsmith go over it with a fine tooth comb to make sure everything is okay before even thinking about firing it. Worst case scenario, its a nice wall hanger.

 

[tiriaq]

This is NOT a valuable parts gun. This is a very rare rifle that has some issues. You are fortunate indeed to find a Lee Metford this early.
Note the serial number. 177. That is the 177th .303 Lee British service rifle. Of the millions made, it is number 177. Note that it still has the 8 shot magazine.
What is the front sight like?
It was most likely relegated to DP status when the Lee Metford rifle was declared obsolete. This was quite early on. Even if it were in perfect functional condition, the rifle is sufficiently rare that it shouldn't be considered a shooter. Note that it was not upgraded to a Lee Enfield. That rifle is old enough that the first experimental black powder .303 cartridges were in use.

 

[dimon]

Thank you for the info guys! I had some thoughts about the holes in the divider(they look very old) and that they may have indicate there is some distinction for this rifle(drill/training). And no,I wasn't thinking of firing this rifle, despite it being fully functional. I took it because it is a historical piece. I love the smell of it!
Tiriaq, the front sight is not there, looks like it just have a notch full of dirt, but retaining pin is still there.

 

[smellie]

Verily, sirs, I LUST!

Last Mark I Lee-Metford I saw for sale was into 4 figures, although it did look a bit better than this one.

This one will clean up very nicely indeed if the work is done carefully.

I have a Lee-Metford Mark II, a commercial rifle whith ots of Service damage.

I thought I was doing REALLY well....... and then THIS pops up out of the woodwork.

Oh, MY!

Congratulations on the wonderful luck. Go buy a lottery ticket RIGHT NOW!

 

[tiriaq]

Sounds as if the front block might be original. The really early rifles had a block with a slot. No blade or barleycorn. Idea was discarded really early on. If there is a cross hole, maybe someone fitted a blade at some time.
Cannot stress this enough, you have a really good one there. Its too bad about the extra holes in the butt socket, the rear trigger guard screw, etc. The rifle is rare enough that these defects don't spoil the collectability of the rifle.
The rifle does need preservation/conservation, but this needs to be done by someone who knows what he is doing, and does it very gently, at that. No wire wheels, rust remover, sandpaper, etc.

 

[bearhunter]

I suspect, those holes are for a micrometer style rear sight, that fit along the left side of the butt socket.

It looks like one I have on a MkI converted to a 22rf with the same locations.

 

[tiriaq]

That is the most likely explanation.

 

[green]

If the front sight block has a hole for a pin the original Lewes front sight has been converted to use a blade which is now lacking. It is also missing the safety catch. This arm has been upgraded to MLM MkI* configuration.

 

[bushwhacker]

Outstanding piece of history!

 

[RRCo.]

Great find! Don't do anything to it except brush it with a dry soft toothbrush and vacuum with the soft round brush on the hose.

Once you start doing anything else, one thing will lead to another and you'll be doing more and more, and you'll think, "Oh, I'll just do that as well so it looks like the rest", and so on and so on. Keep going down that road and you will have messed it up, even with the best of intentions.

The cleaning of a piece like this requires, knowledge, tools, manual dexterity and a very good eye for detail, patience and the ability to keep the objective in view at all times. It's a job for someone who has learned by experience what to do and what not to do, and that the cardinal rule is "If in doubt, don't!"

Get what history on it you can while you can from wherever you got it.

 

[Light Infantry]

I'd like to make one point of note. DP does not always mean drill purpose. Although in this instance, I believe that is the case.

IIRC, Clive Law in "Inglis Diamond", he states that DP could mean display purpose. I could be wrong as it has been awhile. If someone has the book could they confirm.

 

[green]

Is the barrel mounted back sight graduated to 18 or 19? Is the long range sight plate graduated to 35 or 29?

 

[englishman_ca]

Nice find. Good show!!

Just give it a gentle cleaning with gun oil for the metal, linseed oil for the wood. Use extra fine steel wool if you need to shift stubborn crap, but be gentle.

Don't mess with it too much. Enjoy the patina, it took 124 years to get there.

The rifle has significant historical interest to collectors. It is very desirable and to give you an idea what you have in your hands, no doubt in my mind that should you put it up for sale on the net, you could sell it tomorrow for $1000 as is. Even $2000 would not be a stretch to some collectors. It is extremely rare and an incredibly early serial.

A US company called International Military Antiques (IMA) had about a half dozen Mk.I Lee Metfords recovered from Nepal up for sale last year. They were very sad, fairly complete but needed major cleaning and TLC. Retail was $2400 and they went like hot cakes.

I have an 1891 Mk.I which has been upgraded to Mk.I* also. Many of your markings (DP and double opposed arrowheads) are in the same places.

 

[RRCo.]

I will have to respectfully disagree: there is no such thing as "a gentle steel wool". What is "crap" and what is patina? Crap is what you can wipe off with a slightly damp cloth. Patina is everything else.

Don't mess with it. It will cost you money!

In other hobbies like old machinery it is now coming to be realized that original patina and finish means a lot, it is part of the history of the artifact. This does not mean that every rusty old machine or gun has to handled with cotton gloves and left exactly as found. We're not running a museum here, we can use our judgement, but when you have a piece that really is historically significant, dusting and maybe wiping is as far as the average person should go.

And by the way, do we get to hear the story of how and where it was found?

 

[antiqueguy]

Nice find. Good show!!

Just give it a gentle cleaning with gun oil for the metal, linseed oil for the wood. Use extra fine steel wool if you need to shift stubborn crap, but be gentle.

Don't mess with it too much. Enjoy the patina, it took 124 years to get there.

The rifle has significant historical interest to collectors. It is very desirable and to give you an idea what you have in your hands, no doubt in my mind that should you put it up for sale on the net, you could sell it tomorrow for $1000 as is. Even $2000 would not be a stretch to some collectors. It is extremely rare and an incredibly early serial.

A US company called International Military Antiques (IMA) had about a half dozen Mk.I Lee Metfords recovered from Nepal up for sale last year. They were very sad, fairly complete but needed major cleaning and TLC. Retail was $2400 and they went like hot cakes.

I have an 1891 Mk.I which has been upgraded to Mk.I* also. Many of your markings (DP and double opposed arrowheads) are in the same places.

hmm i guess ima took them because they are antiques but they said they left the .303 martinis because of BS laws in NJ

 

[antiqueguy]

I will have to respectfully disagree: there is no such thing as "a gentle steel wool". What is "crap" and what is patina? Crap is what you can wipe off with a slightly damp cloth. Patina is everything else.

Don't mess with it. It will cost you money!

In other hobbies like old machinery it is now coming to be realized that original patina and finish means a lot, it is part of the history of the artifact. This does not mean that every rusty old machine or gun has to handled with cotton gloves and left exactly as found. We're not running a museum here, we can use our judgement, but when you have a piece that really is historically significant, dusting and maybe wiping is as far as the average person should go.

And by the way, do we get to hear the story of how and where it was found?

id say get rid of any lose rust and keep the metal oiled and put sme BLO on the stock

id love to hear how you got this piece

 

[dimon]

Here are a few shots of the rear, front sights and a long range dial. Also, there are some notches carved in at the buttstock. I can only assume that the rifle was fired at some point of its life. Bore seems to be a little dark, but riflings are strong. It will look better after a bit of cleaning, I imagine.
I got a rifle from a local guy, who says that it came from RCMP many years ago( I assume he got it from the member of the force who had it in his private collection)...When I see him again in a few days, I'd sure ask more details.