1901 1894 Winchester .30 WCF opinions

alberta5492

alberta5492

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Hello

I picked this up at an auction recently because I have always wanted an old 1894 to put away. Nothing mint; worn but not worn out and shootable. Anyone want to offer opinions on whether this one is worth keeping, or not.

I think it needs to be re crowned; a 30-30 bullet goes into the muzzle all the way to the brass casing, and still wiggles just a touch. Rifling looks good for a 112 year old rifle; dark but strong.

It also has an issue feeding. When I cycle a round from the magazine and try to close the action the rim at the base of the casing seems to hit the little "guide ramps" and jam. A little wiggle and then it slams home. Seems like an easy fix for a gunsmith, but not sure if worth it.

Magazine tube has some rust. Serial Number seems to put it at 1901 (#21x,###). Hoping some 1894 experts can tell me if I got something worth keeping, thanks

Pictures:
















 
relative to the muzzle of the gun, if you are using a loaded shell, the slug may not be full diameter at the mouth of the shell. Try using a 30 cal bullet (.308) base first in the muzzle. Also long before you rush to have the gun recrowned, shoot it and find what sort of accuracy you get. If the gun has not been refinished, you are probably decreasing its value by shortening the barrel

cheers mooncoon
 
Nice old rifle. Unless you want to shoot it at the Olympics, just have it fixed so it won't jam, and call it a day. Rifles like that need to be left alone, as in please do not "refinish". I certainly would keep it. Those 1894 rifles have class. :)
 
I don't think that rifle has seen lubricating oil in the action since Noah was a Midshipman.

Bore is nice. Even if it is a bit loose, .30-30 slugs are flatbased anyway. A good smack on the back with a fast powder and and they will obturate nicely.

Could use taking down and cleaning CAREFULLY by someone who knows what they are doing.

Nice old Toy!
 
I've also got a 1901 mfg 1894 in (.30 WCF) .30-30. Had it for years and love it.

It handles any .30-30 load just fine, but I load 175-ish lead RN (and as Smellie points out, FB) bullets in it. Accuracy is just fine. Reliability is excellent, although I don't drag this one through the woods.

Note mine is an octagonal barrel, yours is round. I don't recall the relevance/importance there off the top of my head but someone else might chime in on that point. It may (or may not) be important for this vintage.

Mine also has the missing "flag" on the #1 in the serial number which was apparently characteristic of this turn-of-the-century period, worn out die.

9tGQCGZ.jpg


..and YES I'll try again to put this & my 1886 out in the woods where they belong for a photo, last time I put up a photo of a Winnie on my furnace I caught some razzing ;)
 
Thanks for the replies and the compliments. I was hoping someone would say not to recrown it. I will have to try to find a gunsmith somewhere relatively close to the GTA who is competent with these guns to have it serviced. Anyone know someone in that area? Other then that, I'll keep it and leave it as is.

That's a noce example you have NorthCoastBigBore. A looks a little cleaner then mine. I do prefer the look of the octagonal barrel, but am happy with the round one.
 
Re-crowning won't solve your problem if the rifling is worn at the muzzle, you'd have to shorten the barrel as well. As others have already pointed out, it's more valuable left as-is.
 
As has been said, check bullet fit with a bullet not in a case. Your 94 looks to be in better shape than most of that vintage, a fair bit of finish remaining. The feeding problems may be caused by loose cartridge guides. They are on both sides of the receiver inside and are screwed on from the inside as well. Sometimes these will work lose over the years and cause problems. The very first 1894's had the guide screws on the outside but the design was changed as folks had a penchant for unscrewing them and losing the guides.
 
Just out of curoisity, i started to look at the listings of manufactured dates of the winchesters. I did find out that the 21x,###. series of numbers extended from 1902-1904. If the Madis numbers are believeable, then they are approx. anywhere from 5,000- 100,000 off the Cody Museum Records. A few examples of correct number i have had and still have....The polishing room books list the serials of the guns not the ending numbers,

Madis 1904..ending #..311363....actual polishing room books...313571, 327349 and 367074....1906.
Madis 1907..ending #..430985....actual polishing room books...390521..1908
Madis 1908..ending #..474241....actual polishing room books...444150..1909
Madis 1909..ending #..505831....actual polishing room books...4745xx..1910.

Hope these number are of interest, and not confusing to anyone.
. i still have carbines..14573xx ..1947...15989xx..1949...and rifle 4745xx...1910.
 
I got the 1901 date from Simpson Auctions, and from a PDF document:
http://www.winchesterguns.com/support/files/images/wfa/2012-All/2012-Articles/Winchester-Manufacture-Dates-by-Year----2012-Scanned-Documents.pdf

that appears to be from Winchester that says the product run for serial numbers in 1901 ended at 233,975. But I could be off. Sounds like you got a few sources there.

Winnipeg Toymaker said:
Just out of curoisity, i started to look at the listings of manufactured dates of the winchesters. I did find out that the 21x,###. series of numbers extended from 1902-1904. If the Madis numbers are believeable, then they are approx. anywhere from 5,000- 100,000 off the Cody Museum Records. A few examples of correct number i have had and still have....The polishing room books list the serials of the guns not the ending numbers,

Madis 1904..ending #..311363....actual polishing room books...313571, 327349 and 367074....1906.
Madis 1907..ending #..430985....actual polishing room books...390521..1908
Madis 1908..ending #..474241....actual polishing room books...444150..1909
Madis 1909..ending #..505831....actual polishing room books...4745xx..1910.

Hope these number are of interest, and not confusing to anyone.
. i still have carbines..14573xx ..1947...15989xx..1949...and rifle 4745xx...1910.
Click to expand...
 
alberta5492 said:
Thanks to Mike Webb for the info. That sounds like the problem. When I watch the round as I cycle it slowly, that is where it seem to get hung up. Hopefully a trip to a gunsmith will fix that.
Click to expand...

Does the round get hung up when you cycle it normally as it should be cycled? There are a lot of firearms that will not feed properly when you SLOWLY cycle the action, but will work as designed when you cycle it as you should. Semi-automatic firearms sometimes will not close and lock properly when worked by hand and lever action ones too. Lots of .22 rifles will do this too.

A good bore cleaning will give you an idea of the condition of the barrel. It still looks like it has rifling, so one of the first things to do is to slug the bore to see what the actual diameter really is. A heavier slug will upset a bit better, and if you reload, then a lead alloy cast bullet is within the velocity range of full powered heavy bullet loads and will shoot well in a 30-30 if the proper lubricant is used, without leading the barrel.

It is also quite possible that the rifling at the muzzle of your rifle has been worn away by use of steel cleaning rods and improper cleaning technique. Because of the effort to take the lever and bolt out of the Model 94 and similar actions and clean from the breech end, a lot of people cleaned them from the muzzle, and wore away the rifling because it is almost impossible to keep a cleaning rod straight without a bore guide. This would account for your oversize bore when you put a bullet into it.
,
 
I have a 1901 ,94 in 32-40. As far as the crown goes I was told there is none and mine has a octogon barrel that looks like there never was a crown. These old guns shoot best with cast bullets and the size of bullet is important. You will have to try a few to see what works best. Modern ammo with jacketed bullets can be hard on the rifling. The steels of that era were inconsistent in quality and hardness. Compared to mine,yours looks in very nice condition. A reliable gunsmith should be able to smooth up the feeding for you. Even if still abit rough it's worth keeping for a close range deer rifle. I shot a decent whitetail with mine in 2011 at about 80 yards.
 
SaddleTramp is correct. The 94 rifles were flat at the muzzle only the carbines had a crown(as in a small radius). The models 55 and 64 which replaced the 94 rifle were both crowned in the modern fashion. I think all of the .32 WS, 30WCF AND .25/35 barrels were nickel steel. The .38/55 and .32/40 were made with the regular old steel, a contributing factor in the poor condition they are usually found in(along with black powder ammo). I have seen a couple of .38/55 rifles marked nickel steel but these are very rare and specially ordered items.
 
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