1911... do I modify the frame or the new part to fit?

Clobbersauras said:
TDC at times you offer some good information, but I wish you would stop with foolishness like your above statement(s).

Regarding the topic, Larry Vickers explained it best:



Misanthropist clearly knows which candidate he is. And, it's obvious which candidate you are...
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I'm not knocking Misanthropist, or anyone else specifically in this thread. In fact, Misanthropist is one of the few on here who has earned my respect and knows his gear. I'm just pointing out the obvious downfalls and criteria required for owning a 1911. As LAV has said, you must have a passion for them and be willing to work on them endlessly. Neither criteria is desirable nor required in a reliable firearm, just saying. The 1911 is often assimilated to a Harley Davidson. If you want to spend your time working on a pistol or motorcycle, then run a 1911 and a Harley. Personally, I prefer to shoot as opposed to work on my firearms(or vehicles).

TDC
 
I would definitely be the first to admit the 1911 is the ideal gun for only one type of person: the type who loves the 1911 enough to spend a lot of time learning the gun. Most people would be better served by a gun to which they can devote the minimum attention, and simply shoot it.

I primarily shoot 9mm Glocks, which is the ultimate expression of minimal-involvement utilitarian gun design.

But a well-built 1911 is an art piece that is also functional, durable, reliable, and lethal.

In my experience, few 1911 owners know enough to tell the difference between an RIA, a Colt and a Wilson. I also find those owners to be the same people who believe the 1911 is the ultimate bar-none greatest gun ever built. I don't think many of them can spell "parts interchangeability" let alone explain why it is important.

I have a number of friends that are big 1911 nuts. None of them believe that that 1911s are perfect at all, and most shoot Glocks or HKs as their primaries. If you're someone who knows enough about the 1911 to do anything special with it, you are also (probably painfully) aware of its drawbacks. If it's drawbacks are not apparent to you, you don't know enough about the gun to say much to anyone about it, IMO.





OP, I have one of the little jigs that fits on a 1911 frame to radius the lugs to .250". Depending on the beavertail you have, the jig makes it a lot easier. Shoot me a PM if you want to borrow mine.
 
I am a 1911 fan and don't believe it to be the be-all and end-all - don't project your level if zealotry on the rest of us. My sig or glock would be higher on my list in a serious situation. That doesn't mean 1911s are not enjoyable to work on and shoot at the range.

The beavertail grip safety is designed for radiused frame tangs. A GI frame with traditional grip safety has pointy tangs. If you buy a drop in part as mentioned above it gives you the functional benefits of a beavertail safety but often have unsightly gaps due to the varying dimensions of 1911 frames from different manufacturers.

To get a professional fit, you need to radius the pointy frame tangs and blend BOTH the frame and grip safety. OP - I have a Wilson jig I can lend you if you go that way.
 
misanthropist said:
I would definitely be the first to admit the 1911 is the ideal gun for only one type of person: the type who loves the 1911 enough to spend a lot of time learning the gun. Most people would be better served by a gun to which they can devote the minimum attention, and simply shoot it.

I primarily shoot 9mm Glocks, which is the ultimate expression of minimal-involvement utilitarian gun design.

But a well-built 1911 is an art piece that is also functional, durable, reliable, and lethal.

In my experience, few 1911 owners know enough to tell the difference between an RIA, a Colt and a Wilson. I also find those owners to be the same people who believe the 1911 is the ultimate bar-none greatest gun ever built. I don't think many of them can spell "parts interchangeability" let alone explain why it is important.

I have a number of friends that are big 1911 nuts. None of them believe that that 1911s are perfect at all, and most shoot Glocks or HKs as their primaries. If you're someone who knows enough about the 1911 to do anything special with it, you are also (probably painfully) aware of its drawbacks. If it's drawbacks are not apparent to you, you don't know enough about the gun to say much to anyone about it, IMO.





OP, I have one of the little jigs that fits on a 1911 frame to radius the lugs to .250". Depending on the beavertail you have, the jig makes it a lot easier. Shoot me a PM if you want to borrow mine.
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Well said sir.

dallasm said:
I am a 1911 fan and don't believe it to be the be-all and end-all - don't project your level if zealotry on the rest of us. My sig or glock would be higher on my list in a serious situation. That doesn't mean 1911s are not enjoyable to work on and shoot at the range.

The beavertail grip safety is designed for radiused frame tangs. A GI frame with traditional grip safety has pointy tangs. If you buy a drop in part as mentioned above it gives you the functional benefits of a beavertail safety but often have unsightly gaps due to the varying dimensions of 1911 frames from different manufacturers.

To get a professional fit, you need to radius the pointy frame tangs and blend BOTH the frame and grip safety. OP - I have a Wilson jig I can lend you if you go that way.
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Another finely crafted post. As for the topic at hand, why alter the frame? Wouldn't fitting the aftermarket beavertail and replacing it should you mess it up in the fitting be a cheaper and easier option than altering the frame??

TDC
 
Typically beavertail grip safeties are designed to interface with an altered frame. You could probably cut the safety back enough that it would work with a standard frame, but you'd end up with some pretty ugly gaps around the frame lugs. Rather than do that, I'd just grab the Wilson drop-in version (which, incidentally, I have used before when I got one in a package deal years ago). Same gaps around the frame lugs; less effort to install the part.
 
Typically with 1911 parts, yes but the grip safety is a bit different.

The grip safety would likely not have enough material to be fit to GI frame tangs. The distance between the safety pin hole and the tip of the frame tangs is too long to allow the grip safety to be fit to the frame without basically cutting right through it.

On the other hand, Wilson drop in grip safeties fit most stock GI frame tangs with little modification. If not wanting to hack at your frame and you need a beavertail, this is the way to go (ie: an old 70 series colt government model should not be fit for a beavertail safety, despite the potential fitting gaps, IMHO).
 
OK, I'm about to sound like an old guy - but here goes; most of the younger guys who shoot 1911's have had the luxury of buying one and taking it out and shooting it - they've bought Kimbers, or late model Colts, or the dreaded PO. All of which have beavertails fitted - correction, installed - there's a difference, 'throated' barrels and extended safeties. Doesn't mean they're good, just that these things come installed from the factory. Anyone who was around 20 years ago and owned a 1911 has experienced the joy of buying a brand new Colt or Springfield, and taking it directly to a pistolsmith to get it straightened out before shooting it. "That'll be $900 for the gun and $800-$1000 to make it shoot anything other than 230 grain ball without turning your hand to hamburger, while giving your trigger finger a cramp it'll never forget." The reality is that the underlying gun hasn't changed much, and that though the newer guns appear to be the same as a 'smithed 1911, they aren't - and that's where a lot of the confusion comes from. It may look like a Pachmayr Combat Special, but it says Kimber on the side, and there isn't 1 chance in 1,000 that it'll work like a Pachmayr one. If you're not capable of doing it yourself, which is the ideal, or paying someone to do it for you, second best - get a gun that'll work out of the box, the odds are that it won't be a 1911, unless you don't shoot much*. *(the definition of "don't shoot much" varies, but as far as I'm concerned if you think 500 rounds is more than 1 trip to the range, you don't shoot much).
 
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enefgee said:
OK, I'm about to sound like an old guy - but here goes; most of the younger guys who shoot 1911's have had the luxury of buying one and taking it out and shooting it - they've bought Kimbers, or late model Colts, or the dreaded PO. All of which have beavertails fitted - correction, installed - there's a difference, 'throated' barrels and extended safeties. Doesn't mean they're good, just that these things come installed from the factory. Anyone who was around 20 years ago and owned a 1911 has experienced the joy of buying a brand new Colt or Springfield, and taking it directly to a pistolsmith to get it straightened out before shooting it. "That'll be $900 for the gun and $800-$1000 to make it shoot anything other than 230 grain ball without turning your hand to hamburger, while giving your trigger finger a cramp it'll never forget." The reality is that the underlying gun hasn't changed much, and that though the newer guns appear to be the same as a 'smithed 1911, they aren't - and that's where a lot of the confusion comes from. It may look like a Pachmayr Combat Special, but it says Kimber on the side, and there isn't 1 chance in 1,000 that it'll work like a Pachmayr one. If you're not capable of doing it yourself, which is the ideal, or paying someone to do it for you, second best - get a gun that'll work out of the box, the odds are that it won't be a 1911, unless you don't shoot much*. *(the definition of "don't shoot much" varies, but as far as I'm concerned if you think 500 rounds is more than 1 trip to the range, you don't shoot much).
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To be honest I find after about 300 rounds in one range session I'm not really improving my skillset much. 500 rounds is typically 2 trips to the range for me. 250-300 rounds over about 3 hours is about the sweet spot for handgun training IME.
 
misanthropist said:
To be honest I find after about 300 rounds in one range session I'm not really improving my skillset much. 500 rounds is typically 2 trips to the range for me. 250-300 rounds over about 3 hours is about the sweet spot for handgun training IME.
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If I lived closer to the range, I'd agree but it's 45 mins each way and I only have the opportunity to get there twice a month, so it's 500 a trip for me over about 4 hours or so, and it's not as much as I'd like - twice more a month would be perfect. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that if you don't shoot 1,000 rounds a month, you don't shoot much.
 
Your myopic rudeness is very unbecoming. Do us all a favor and try to stop behaving like a spoiled little brat. You like Glocks, we get it. Next time we're in the middle of a gunfight in the streets of anytown Canada we'll gladly ask you for your wicked ninja skills. In the meantime, please refrain from posting your sarcastic and condescending rhetoric every time someone asks for technical advice.

TDC said:
Another useless post, imagine that...

TDC
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yohann160 said:
Your myopic rudeness is very unbecoming. Do us all a favor and try to stop behaving like a spoiled little brat. You like Glocks, we get it. Next time we're in the middle of a gunfight in the streets of anytown Canada we'll gladly ask you for your wicked ninja skills. In the meantime, please refrain from posting your sarcastic and condescending rhetoric every time someone asks for technical advice.
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You're right, I do like Glocks, but I like them because they work and are about the best suited design for most any role. I don't invest emotion into a design/brand/style like others, I'm concerned with performance and reliability, not looks and reliving history. I asked for clarification on the 1911 platform in this thread and received an answer(from a couple of members no less). If the answer(s) provided weren't what you wanted to hear that's fine, but they are what they are.

TDC
 
dallasm said:
Correct on all counts TDC - most quality 1911 parts need to be fit and are not drop in interchangeable and the original design components on a GI pattern gun (grip safety, sights, barrel, hammer, guide rod, etc.) are often changed out for parts with a more modern design as you mention.

What's with the sarcasm?
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Hes an idiot who likes to argue
 
Why don't you file the part down rather than expand the size of the frame? You cant cut a hole smaller so if you overdo it on the frame this time and have to do it again it could make things really difficult for you.
 
TDC said:
You're right, I do like Glocks, but I like them because they work and are about the best suited design for most any role. I don't invest emotion into a design/brand/style like others, I'm concerned with performance and reliability, not looks and reliving history. I asked for clarification on the 1911 platform in this thread and received an answer(from a couple of members no less). If the answer(s) provided weren't what you wanted to hear that's fine, but they are what they are.

TDC
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The only posts I find obnoxious are yours. And from what I gather, I am not alone.
 
ztunelover said:
Why don't you file the part down rather than expand the size of the frame? You cant cut a hole smaller so if you overdo it on the frame this time and have to do it again it could make things really difficult for you.
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you actually reduce the frame, removing the ears at the back of the frame to allow the new part to sit in closer and cover more area. you do it with a jig ideally, which will make excess metal removal all but impossible
 
ztunelover said:
Why don't you file the part down rather than expand the size of the frame? You cant cut a hole smaller so if you overdo it on the frame this time and have to do it again it could make things really difficult for you.
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Actually, you can - often 'smiths who insist on a perfect fit will weld in (actually 'fill' with welding rod) new material to the sides of the grip safety opening, then file it back for a precise fit. Guys like Liebenberg and Vickers do this to all their guns.
 
well... this got out of hand fast didnt it. For what it may still be worth, this part is going on one of the cheap Can-AM 1911's I paid about $170 for. I saw this gun as a very cheap learning tool for me and an opportunity to expand my pistol experience. What I found after shooting it at the range during a "makeshift" 3 gun style match was that I shot it WAY better than my M&P 9mm or my Glock 21. I then tried my buddies CZ 75 VS my M&P and found that I shot IT better too. My only conclusion was that I shoot all metal guns better. Possibly due to their extra weight. Im a newer shooter and I know I have alot of technique to work on. But for the time being, I really REALLY liked SHOOTING the 1911. I dont know or care about the rest of the opinion surrounding the gun. It holds no special place in my heart. I just really liked shooting it. Im a person who CAN afford nice, higher end things. But this cheap gun is working great.

My only real reason for wanting to install the beaver tail in the first place was to jaz up the gun a bit. I also liked the idea of the raised portion of the aftermarket safeties... seems to me like it would provide a more positive grip and more positive disengagement of the safety. I CLEARLY dont know jack about these things as I bought a VERY poorly chosen part. Hearing now that there ARE drop in versions that could fit with minimal mods has convinced me to buy one of those, sell the one I have and save my self some hassle. This gun doesnt need to be pretty... its not pretty now. Things DONT fit perfectly now and there are gaps everywhere. Im just looking for a little more function. So a drop in unit will be fine in all its imperfect glory.

BIG BIG thanks to you guys who offered to let me borrow your jigs. This is why I like the gun community so much. I cant think of any other hobby im a part of in which complete strangers would be willing to loan out tools across the internet. Way to make a guy feel welcome... its much appreciated.

I did buy a CZ 75 SP-01 to replace my M&P and ive since sold my Glock 21 in favour of the 1911 I have now. I can definitely see myself buying a way nicer 1911 some day. But for now... this one is fine. Im a shooter who likes to SHOOT. Not stare at artwork. With that said, I do appreciate a piece of art I can shoot...
 
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