1911 half ####?

It's for 1911 carry condition 2.

A round chambered and then the hammer lowered to half-####. Generally considered less safe than 1911 carry condition 1, cocked and locked.
 
Well, you can't put the safety on (at least on my Spartan) when you're at the half-####.

I guess the idea is an alternative to being hammer-down on a loaded chamber, so an inadverant hard impact to the hammer won't fire off the shot?

This is just a guess on my part. I mean, the half-#### on the Browning High-Power allows for the safety to be put on to add that extra layer of protection against a (genuine) accidental discharge that way, so since the two are based on roughly the same design it might be the same reason?

Just a thought.
 
Deuce044 said:
Well, you can't put the safety on (at least on my Spartan) when you're at the half-####.

I guess the idea is an alternative to being hammer-down on a loaded chamber, so an inadverant hard impact to the hammer won't fire off the shot?

This is just a guess on my part. I mean, the half-#### on the Browning High-Power allows for the safety to be put on to add that extra layer of protection against a (genuine) accidental discharge that way, so since the two are based on roughly the same design it might be the same reason?

Just a thought.
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In my opinion there is quite a difference between trigger function on a 1911 and a hi-power
 
It's considered more dangerous than condition1 since:

1) You have to lower the hammer with a round chambered, if your thumb slips, you get an AD and maybe a broken thumb when the slide comes back over the hammer.

2) Pre-series 80 1911's might AD if the hammer is struck hard in condition 2.

3) In a serious social encounter, the adrenaline dump might make your fine motor skills go out the window, making it more difficult to thumb back the hammer.

Conditions 1 (with a proper holster, training and all of the 1911 safeties functional) and 3 are considered much safer.
 
The half #### position is to hopefully prevent runaway full auto if the sear/hammer interface fail.Also,if your thumb slips while cocking the hammer,hopefully the half #### will catch it.

Its not a safety,and carrying the gun,chamber loaded and at halfcock is not a good idea,as if the gun is dropped onto the hammer,the half #### notch can break and the gun may fire.

(PS condition 2 carry,is with a loaded chamber and the hammer all the way down,not at half ####)
 
It's a safety feature; if you manually lower the hammer on a loaded gun and drop it accidently it will be 'hang up' in a half #### position.

the gun is NOT meant to be carried half cocked!
 
(PS condition 2 carry,is with a loaded chamber and the hammer all the way down,not at half ####)
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Quite right.

I guess the idea is an alternative to being hammer-down on a loaded chamber, so an inadverant hard impact to the hammer won't fire off the shot?
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Also, the firing pin 'floats', so a blow to the hammer when it is fully down should have no adverse effects.


TJ
 
Also, the firing pin 'floats', so a blow to the hammer when it is fully down should have no adverse effects.
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If it is a series 80 or later, true.

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/tech/ad_tb.htm

Accidental Discharge of a 1911 in a Thumb Break Holster
My brother recently acquired a Colt Commander. He had put a Federal hollowpoint in the chamber and lowered the hammer (condition #2). He was holstering the pistol with the hammer down. This was a holster with a thumb break. As he attempted to adjust the pistol in order to snap the thumb break closed, the pistol discharged. The round traveled into his upper right butt cheek and out the bottom, about 6 inches below his butt cheek. The round didn't expand and fell to the floor under the weight of gravity alone. He is fine now but the AD [accidental discharge] perplexed us a lot until we figured that the hammer was resting on the firing pin, and the soft primer Federal hollowpoint round and the hard "snap" of the new holster hit the hammer hard enough to touch off a round. Fixing the issue is to simply not chamber a round, period.

Thank you for sending in this incident report and I’m glad that your brother is OK. After conferring with a couple of my gurus, we agree that your analysis is entirely possible. With the hammer down on a live round, the force involved with forcing down the thumb break could set off a sensitive primer, especially if the force was applied quickly. Thumb break holsters for the 1911 are designed to fit “condition one” guns – hammer cocked and safety locked. The thumb break then fits securely around the rear of the slide. In addition to the internal safeties of the gun, the thumb break provides an additional barrier to an accidental discharge because it fits between the hammer and the firing pin. This incident provides yet another illustration of why I don’t like condition two carry – hammer down on a live round. On a genuine 1911 there is no firing pin block and it is possible for a condition two gun to go off if it receives an impact on the hammer.

There is another possibility here, and that is that the gun was actually in a "false half-####" condition. It is possible on some guns to lower the hammer so that it stops with the end of the sear against the point of the half-#### hook rather than being trapped within the half-#### notch. It has been shown in testing that a hammer falling from half-#### will set off a live round about 40% of the time. It is possible that your brother actually lowered the hammer to this "false half-####" condition and the force of trying to snap the thumb break over hammer caused it to slip and thus allow the hammer to fall from half-####. [In the diagram, the half-#### hook is the uppermost hook which is nearest to the hammer stem. The sear is the crescent-shaped piece which sits in front of the hammer.]

The only place I disagree with you is in your conclusion that the only safe way to carry a 1911 is with an empty chamber. I think that the safest way to carry a 1911 is condition one – hammer cocked and safety locked. In an absolute sense, condition three or condition four is “safer” from the point of view of accidental discharges, but these are not safer in terms of the gun performing the function for which it is intended. Racking the slide to load the gun during the draw is considerably slower than sweeping off the thumb safety, and in an emergency it could make the difference between life and death. For more of my thoughts on this, please see “Is ‘Cocked and Locked’ Dangerous?” An alternate way of dealing with this problem is to use gun with a firing pin block such as Series 80 and later Colts or Series II Kimbers.
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sevoman said:
The half #### position is to hopefully prevent runaway full auto if the sear/hammer interface fail.Also,if your thumb slips while cocking the hammer,hopefully the half #### will catch it.

Its not a safety,and carrying the gun,chamber loaded and at halfcock is not a good idea,as if the gun is dropped onto the hammer,the half #### notch can break and the gun may fire.

(PS condition 2 carry,is with a loaded chamber and the hammer all the way down,not at half ####)
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Straight up!
 
geologist said:
It's for 1911 carry condition 2.

A round chambered and then the hammer lowered to half-####. Generally considered less safe than 1911 carry condition 1, cocked and locked.
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Condition 2 is round in chamber and hammer all the way down. It requires either thumbing the hammer back or racking the slide and ditching a live round in order to get the gun into play, neither of which options make any sense.

The half-#### is a built in redundancy in case the hammer hooks slip off the sear for any reason other than a deliberate pull of the trigger. It is not designed or meant to be used as a mode of carry.
 
Thanks guys for the clarification, I always thought that condition 2 utilized the half-####, it NEVER occured to me that anyone would carry a 1911 with a round chambered and the hammer down all the way.
 
geologist said:
Thanks guys for the clarification, I always thought that condition 2 utilized the half-####, it NEVER occured to me that anyone would carry a 1911 with a round chambered and the hammer down all the way.
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For most people it's the safest method (Trained pro's excluded). It isn't hard to rack the slide during the draw stroke and it doesn't add a huge amount of time.
 
lowering hammer?

How would it act as a safety when lowering the hammer? You have to pull the trigger to lower the hammer manually with your thumb and if it slips and your finger is still holding back the trigger won't the gun fire?
 
mark123 said:
How would it act as a safety when lowering the hammer? You have to pull the trigger to lower the hammer manually with your thumb and if it slips and your finger is still holding back the trigger won't the gun fire?
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It only acts as a safety if the hammer slips out of your grasp and the trigger has been pressed and then released. If the trigger is held back when the hammer slips the gun will do what it is designed to do; fire.
 
Thanks guys for the clarification, I always thought that condition 2 utilized the half-####, it NEVER occured to me that anyone would carry a 1911 with a round chambered and the hammer down all the way.
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On any sort of 'active duty'. (cops, security personnel, etc) it would be an excellent way to lose your first gunfight.

For most people it's the safest method (Trained pro's excluded). It isn't hard to rack the slide during the draw stroke and it doesn't add a huge amount of time
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(Presumably you mean 'condition 3')

Possibly true, but when the SHTF there are two problems,
1. Adrenaline induced malfunction
2. The time it takes could be crucial
Additionally, if you are really expecting to have to use your handgun, it had better be as ready as possible.

Which is why we have the DA auto, 'condition 1' being regarded as 'dangerous'. (Not a theory to which I subscribe)

I stand to be corrected, but I believe the military utilise 'Condition 3', loaded mag, empty chamber, hammer down.

I also believe that all regular 1911's, (Llama variants excluded, but certainly every 1911 I have owned) have a floating firing pin. Nothing to do with the firing pin block in the (misguided) Series 80 variants.

In all of them, with the hammer down, the firing pin does not touch the primer, but strikes the primer using inertia produced by the hammer, before rebounding back into it's hole. Check out the animation, use the buttons to 'hide' the slide.

http://www.m1911.org/loader.swf

The hammer cannot go forward any more as it is blocked by the firing pin retainer, so in the incident with the shot buttock which is posted by 'Geologist', I can't see how a missed thumb-break action could possibly fire the gun. If the forward inertia of the slide can't do it.........

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/tech/ad_tb.htm

Interesting article, but I would bet this gun was being holstered in 'Condition 1', and he inadvertently knocked off the safety.

First person who can replicate holstering in 'condition 2' and discharging the gun please post a video on YouTube. (I'm not holding my breath). (I would also suggest not even trying with a live cartridge)

TJ
 
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