1911 half ####?

If you're not proficient with your pistol then maybe you shouldn't be carrying it...


Words Twice
We're Canadian. With the exception of LE officers and military, not many of us are going to be carrying a defensive pistol, and of those that do it likely won't be a 1911. Too much liability.

And I didn't say that I wasn't proficient; I know my way around a 1911 pretty well. What I said was "most people....trained pros excluded." In the world of law enforcement, a single action pistol carried cocked and locked is a liability/lawsuit nightmare in this new world of litigation. That's why departments have been issuing guns that the lowest common denominator can handle without shooting themselves in the leg or anyone else accidentally (even though it still happens from time to time). Most cops simply don't care about firearms beyond the basic understanding of their use as a tool of the trade, and they earn enough skill to qualify every year and that's about it. Hardly a trained pro.

I do not carry a gun for self defense; I use them in competition. But if I did, it would not be a 1911. I would just have no interest in getting sued for running around with a "hair trigger."

In a special branch of the military, maybe....
 
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I also believe that all regular 1911's, (Llama variants excluded, but certainly every 1911 I have owned) have a floating firing pin. Nothing to do with the firing pin block in the (misguided) Series 80 variants.

Series 80 was another of those product liability things designed to take the "user out of the interface" in that; if standard 1911 is dropped on its muzzle with a round chambered, the rebounding firing pin can develop enough inertia to fire the gun....theoretically. It is possible but you would have to have to drop it from quite a ways and it would have to land just right on something hard like concrete. All it does is block the forward travel of the firing pin until a deliberate pull of the trigger releases it.
 
Fail safe in case the sear hook breaks.
Carrying half cocked on the battlefield sounds reasonable to me, although I'm in a minority there :).

Carrying half-cocked on the battlefield is - well - half-cocked. Folks get all twisted about a 1911 in Condition 1 but think nothing of carrying a Glock with no safety at all. I would contend that there are far more ND's with Glocks carried by NDP's than by real gunfighters carrying JMB's masterpiece...


blake
 
i've been through the "system" and in NO CIRCUMSTANCES do you ever carry the 1911 on half ####- if your primary jams( which happens a lot on the 60) you dump the primary, and transition immediately to the 1911 which had better be in condition one ( cocked and locked) as the saftey is flicked off as the gun comes out- there's even a way( which i never found,btw) to manipulate the slide into battery inside the holster using the m3 hip- the halfcock is there merely to stop the hammer from falling if the sear fails
 
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I'll probably get flamed here for being picky, but the Colt series 80 doesn't have a "half-####", it has a safety stop which gets in the way of the hammer from hitting the firing pin unless the hammer is drawn fully back and is released by the trigger. The safety stop is only pulled out of the way when you pull the trigger. Its purpose as people have been saying is to prevent the hammer from hitting the firing pin if the gun is dropped on the barrel and the hammer bounces or somehow hit on the hammer itself.

A half-#### on a hammer is a mechanical position that a hammer can be pulled back to and is part of the hammer action itself, like on a Colt 1873 SAA revolver, and any number of rifles. You can't pull the hammer back to a half #### position on a Colt 1911 Series 80.

Also, Carry Mode 2, quoted from the manual, is "Magazine loaded, chamber empty, hammer down" NOT round in chamber. Carry-mode 3, Cocked-n-locked is the only carry mode with a round in the chamber.

The reason some people argue that Carry Mode 2 isn't as safe as Carry Mode 3 is because the gun is in an unknown status. The argument is that the slide can somehow be cycled and a round chambered (don't ask me how its not my argument) and when the gun is drawn the operator now has a loaded gun and isn't aware of it. In Carry Mode 3, the argument is that the operator is always aware of the guns status.

I believe the military were trained to carry in cocked-n-locked mode but I'm not sure about that.

Remember that a 1911 has a grip safety, a slide lock safety, a safety stop on the hammer, inertia firing pin, firing pin disconector, and firing pin lock all stopping the gun from going off unless you actually fully grip the gun and pull the trigger, so cocked-n-locked isn't as dramatic as it sounds.
 
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My understanding of American military was the Colt was carried loaded, cocked with safety on.

On a flight into the backwoods of Mexico or Guatamala I ran afoul of the federal police. As my plane was being searched I noticed the 1911 on their hips were all cocked. Got my full attention....
 
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"I'll probably get flamed here for being picky, but the Colt series 80 doesn't have a "half-####", it has a safety stop which gets in the way of the hammer from hitting the firing pin unless the hammer is drawn fully back and is released by the trigger. The safety stop is only pulled out of the way when you pull the trigger. Its purpose as people have been saying is to prevent the hammer from hitting the firing pin if the gun is dropped on the barrel and the hammer bounces or somehow hit on the hammer itself."

Tomato-tomawto. Series 70's have a captive notch they called a half ####, and the series 80's have a non-captive ledge in the same place that does the same thing but they call it a safety notch. They both stop the hammer should it slip off the sear, but you can pull through the series 80 notch if the hammer is resting against it. The safety stop is not actually pulled out of the way; it is in the same place as the half-#### notch on a series 70 (part of the hammer), and it simply clears the sear when the trigger is pulled deliberately. In a series 80 there is no need for a captive notch, as the firing pin safety will stop the gun from firing if the trigger isn't deliberately pulled. It's really there in case of sear bounce or follow-through.

"A half-#### on a hammer is a mechanical position that a hammer can be pulled back to and is part of the hammer action itself, like on a Colt 1873 SAA revolver, and any number of rifles. You can't pull the hammer back to a half #### position on a Colt 1911 Series 80."

Yes you can. Or if you want to be technical you can pull it back until it rests on the safety stop.

"I believe the military were trained to carry in cocked-n-locked mode but I'm not sure about that."

No, not to my knowledge. Alway condition 2.
 
"I'll probably get flamed here for being picky, but the Colt series 80 doesn't have a "half-####", it has a safety stop which gets in the way of the hammer from hitting the firing pin unless the hammer is drawn fully back and is released by the trigger. The safety stop is only pulled out of the way when you pull the trigger. Its purpose as people have been saying is to prevent the hammer from hitting the firing pin if the gun is dropped on the barrel and the hammer bounces or somehow hit on the hammer itself."

Tomato-tomawto. Series 70's have a captive notch they called a half ####, and the series 80's have a non-captive ledge in the same place that does the same thing but they call it a safety notch. They both stop the hammer should it slip off the sear, but you can pull through the series 80 notch if the hammer is resting against it. The safety stop is not actually pulled out of the way; it is in the same place as the half-#### notch on a series 70 (part of the hammer), and it simply clears the sear when the trigger is pulled deliberately. In a series 80 there is no need for a captive notch, as the firing pin safety will stop the gun from firing if the trigger isn't deliberately pulled. It's really there in case of sear bounce or follow-through.

"A half-#### on a hammer is a mechanical position that a hammer can be pulled back to and is part of the hammer action itself, like on a Colt 1873 SAA revolver, and any number of rifles. You can't pull the hammer back to a half #### position on a Colt 1911 Series 80."

Yes you can. Or if you want to be technical you can pull it back until it rests on the safety stop.

"I believe the military were trained to carry in cocked-n-locked mode but I'm not sure about that."

No, not to my knowledge. Alway condition 2.

Yup, I think you explained the Series 80 safety stop very well. I would still debate calling it a half-#### on a Series 80, Colt doesn't, but what the heck.

I'm down with the flu today, so I'll see if I can find the reference I seem to remember for the Colt 1911 about training. I'm sure either by Browning's design or by US Army in WW II training that when going into action/patrol it was intended to be carried cocked-n-locked and around camp in mode 2.
 
I'm sure either by Browning's design or by US Army in WW II training that when going into action/patrol it was intended to be carried cocked-n-locked and around camp in mode 2.

I think you'll find that Jeff Cooper and company really propagated the idea of carrying cocked and locked. And with the advent of the modern holster and the beaver tail grip safety...and IPSC competition which Cooper got rolling in the first place... it became more practical to do so. Some of the special forces guys will carry 1911's in condition 3 (with suitable holster rigs), but in WWII they had them stuffed in those crazy leather flap holsters. They only were intended to be only VERY close quarters, last ditch weapons or something to be used just until you can get back to a rifle.

I sure as hell wouldn't have wanted some 19 year old bone tired grunt pulling a cocked and locked .45 out of a flap holster BEHIND me...probably with his finger on the trigger the moment he clears leather.
 
you guys need to REVIEW your conditions-1 is round chambered, cocked and locked-two is chamber empty , hammer down, and - and HAVING SERVED i can tell you that's the only way the 1911 is carried in the us - period- if you NEED your pistol, you don't have tIME to rack the slide to chamber a round- read my previous post- the safety is flicked off as the pistol comes up and the round is discharged AS SOON AS THE SIGHTS LINE UP ON THE TARGET- we were taught it should be all one fluid motion- flap open , pistol coming up, saftey off, sights, round out-
 
This is how I think of 1911 Conditions:

http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_conditions.htm

The Conditions of Readiness:

The legendary guru of the combat 1911, Jeff Cooper, came up with the "Condition" system to define the state of readiness of the 1911-pattern pistol. The are:

Condition 0 - A round is in the chamber, hammer is cocked, and the safety is off.

Condition 1 - Also known as "cocked and locked," means a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety on the side of the frame is applied.

Condition 2 - A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.

Condition 3 - The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun.

Condition 4 - The chamber is empty, hammer is down and no magazine is in the gun.

The mode of readiness preferred by the experts is Condition One. Generally speaking, Condition One offers the best balance of readiness and safety. Its biggest drawback is that it looks scary to people who don't understand the operation and safety features of the pistol.

Condition Two is problematic for several reasons, and is the source of more negligent discharges than the other conditions. When you rack the slide to chamber a round in the 1911, the hammer is cocked and the manual safety is off. There is no way to avoid this with the 1911 design. In order to lower the hammer, the trigger must be pulled and the hammer lowered slowly with the thumb onto the firing pin, the end of which is only a few millimeters away from the primer of a live round. Should the thumb slip, the hammer would drop and fire the gun. Not only would a round be launched in circumstances which would be at best embarrassing and possibly tragic, but also the thumb would be behind the slide as it cycled, resulting in serious injury to the hand. A second problem with this condition is that the true 1911A1 does not have a firing pin block and an impact on the hammer which is resting on the firing pin could conceivably cause the gun to go off, although actual instances of this are virtually nonexistent. Finally, in order to fire the gun, the hammer must be manually cocked, again with the thumb. In an emergency situation, this adds another opportunity for something to go wrong and slows the acquisition of the sight picture.

Condition Three adds a degree of "insurance" against an accidental discharge since there is no round in the chamber. To bring the gun into action from the holster, the pistol must be drawn and the slide racked as the pistol is brought to bear on the target. This draw is usually called "the Israeli draw" since it was taught by Israeli security and defense forces. Some of the real expert trainers can do an Israeli draw faster than most of us can do a simple draw, but for most of us, the Israeli draw adds a degree of complexity, an extra step, and an opening for mistakes in the process of getting the front sight onto the target.

Using the "half-####" as a safety

The half-#### notch on the M1911 is really intended as a "fail-safe" and is not recommended as a safety. However, it has been used as a mode of carry. From Dale Ireland comes this interesting piece of service history from WWII:

When the hammer is pulled back just a few millimeters it "half cocks" and pulling the trigger will not fire the gun [on genuine mil-spec G.I. pistols]. I imagine this is an unsafe and not a recommended safety position. The reason I bring it up however is that it was a commonly used position especially by left-handers in WWII. My father carried his 1911 (not A1) to Enewitok, Leyte, first wave at Luzon, the battle inside Intramuros, and until he was finally shot near Ipo dam. He tells me that he regularly used the half cocked safety position especially at night and patrolling because bringing the weapon to the full cocked position from the half cocked created much less noise and he was left handed so he couldn't use the thumb safety effectively. He said using the half cocked position was all about noise reduction for lefties while maintaining a small amount of safety that could quickly be released.

Again, the half-#### is intended as a fail-safe in the event that the sear hooks were to fail, and it is not recommended as a mode of carry. It should also be noted that on guns with "Series 80" type hammers, the hammer will fall from half-#### when the trigger is pulled. This would include guns from Springfield Armory and modern production Colts. But, if you happen to be a south paw and find yourself in the jungle with a G.I. M1911A1 and surrounded by enemy troops, the half-#### might be an option.
 
and just to settle the score FIELD MANUAL 23-35, us army, pistol, caliber 45, automatic, m1911a1, and tm ( technical manual tm9- 1005-211-34 with supplements ) page 65 - deployment of pistol
to quote" THE pistol shall, at all times, have a ROUND IN THE CHAMBER , the hammer in the rearward position, and the SAFETY ON- either the 7791466 hip holster or7791527 shoulder holster are suitable for this pistol
this is a ww2 field manual with supplements- it may have been superceded - the other one i have covers firing from horseback
incidentally geologist is RIGHT on his interpetations of conditions- look it up
 
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I'm glad someone with the actual military training and with actual army manual references jumped in to the rescue! Thanks t-star!:)

From the other post I also realize I caused a problem by mixing up terminology by forgetting about Cooper. Cooper's "Condition" and Colt's "Carry Mode" refer to different schemes. "Carry Mode" is the term used in the current Colt 1911 user manual, and there's only 3.

Mode 1: Magazine Empty, Chamber Empty
Mode 2: Magazine Loaded, Chamber Empty, Hammer Down
Mode 3: Magazine Loaded, Chamber Loaded, Hammer Cocked, Safety On

If you want to argue about them argue with Colt...not me, I'm just quoting the manual.

As noted in the Colt user manual and by Cooper, carrying a 1911, particularly a 70 series hammer down with a chambered round is bubba stupid.
 
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the colt manual is written by CIVILiANS- my ar manual has some non military crap in it too- for one thing it takes the cleaning procedure far further than it needs to- however my colt mk 4 series 70 manual makes NO MENTIONof "carry mode'- this must be something that was added AFTER THE 70 SERIES was terminated, probably when they started the phoney-baloney 80 series with the firing pin b/s- the system worked for 2 world wars, numerous skirmishes, and through some incidences- THERE WAS NO REASON TO CHANGE IT-and we're now back to the "old style " again-
if you carry hammer down, round chambered on the series 70 and previous,you risk 1) the round discharging either killing you, or getting your foot, leg, and other parts - this is because the hammer can be hit with enough force while in the rest position to drive the firing pin forward( it's an inertia firing pin) into the primer but the GRIP SAFETY also has to be bypassed- and you'll probably have the hammer break at the base just before the wheel- in other words it's an ACCIDENT
with cocked and locked, you have already have the hammer at full swing but blocked, even though you have ALREADY ENGAGED THE GRIP SAFETY- this means that you have purposely drawn the gun from its holster and are getting ready to fire you KNOW what the consequences are WHEN YOU FLIP OFF THAT SAFETY- it was drilled into us that if FOR ANY REASON you decide NOT TO FIRE, the SAFETY goes BACK ON FIRST-
 
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