1911 or Glock ( what do you think?? )

[TDC]

For those saying that a Glock is more reliable well we will have to wait and see. This is my IPSC gun a 1911A1 built in 1942. It is 67 years old and goes bang everytime.

Under ideal conditions with limited round count matches. How about dominant only, support side only, dirty, bloody, wet, hot? There's still the capacity issue and recoil as well.

TDC

 

[Jamie Frost]

How about dominant only, support side only, dirty, bloody, wet, hot? There's still the capacity issue and recoil as well.

TDC[/QUOTE]

are you ####ting me??? dirty, bloody, wet, hot??? it was standard issue for the U.S army for how long? you dont think a 1911 saw any dirt, blood, water or heat??? give me a break. this pistol has seen combat all over the world for the last 100 years and are only recently getting replaced (and definatly not replaced by glocks by the way). to even compare is nuts. do you think the police or gangbangers who carry glocks will ever put as many rounds down the pipe as a combat vet of World War 2. not friggen likley pal. when is the last time a cop has been rolling around in the mud or water or desert heat or been covered in blood with his glock???? do you think that ratio is even comparable to a 1911??? WOW and I gotta say as well, I agree with Nick E when he said if you cant decock a pistol, you shouldnt have a gun. you think a decocking lever is safer than manualy lowering the hammer yourself. what ####ing planet have I landed on?

 

[TDC]

How about dominant only, support side only, dirty, bloody, wet, hot? There's still the capacity issue and recoil as well.

TDC

are you s**tting me??? dirty, bloody, wet, hot??? it was standard issue for the U.S army for how long? you dont think a 1911 saw any dirt, blood, water or heat??? give me a break. this pistol has seen combat all over the world for the last 100 years and are only recently getting replaced (and definatly not replaced by glocks by the way). to even compare is nuts. do you think the police or gangbangers who carry glocks will ever put as many rounds down the pipe as a combat vet of World War 2. not friggen likley pal. when is the last time a cop has been rolling around in the mud or water or desert heat or been covered in blood with his glock???? do you think that ratio is even comparable to a 1911??? WOW and I gotta say as well, I agree with Nick E when he said if you cant decock a pistol, you shouldnt have a gun. you think a decocking lever is safer than manualy lowering the hammer yourself. what f**king planet have I landed on?[/QUOTE]

The 1911 was standard issue, to officers who rarely used them. The pistol replaced the sabre as a sign of rank, not practicality. Adverse conditions were experienced with all firearms that were issued. The fact is the 1911 was not a primary weapon and never has been.

Plenty of Glocks being used by military personnel all around the globe, so don't pretend like they aren't in service.

Decockers are far safer than lowering the hammer manually. For starters, if you are lowering the hammer manually, you need some training. Second, if your pistol does not have a decocker its either a POS or a single action pistol and you shouldn't be lowering the hammer. Third, pistols with decockers prevent the hammer from striking the firing pin as well as preventing access to the primer. manually dropping the hammer does not, you're simply slowing the natural action of the hammer. Last, can you decock one handed?

TDC

 

[Jamie Frost]

Last, can you decock one handed?

actually I can quite easily. my thumb is under my control, so any incident would be due to human error. with a decocking lever, you have a mechanical device, and any mechanical device can fail. so with a glock you have the potential for human error as well as mechanical failure. the 1911 is a proven and effective combat pistol. period. give me a list of major world conflicts in which the glock has seen action. this of course excludes the Crips and Bloods. just because police and gangs carry glocks doesn't make me think they are anything than a firearm made to suit a group that doesn't know how to use a gun and need the simplest form possible. in another 70 years, if the glock is still running strong let me know, but what I am very confident in is that in 70 years, the 1911 will still be coming out by the masses

 

[yyyyy]

YYYY, you need to stop assuming things. I'm a TR alumni.

I have assumed nothing. And would love to know what close quarters confrontations, retention, and close shooting training you have. Clearly this cannot all be covered in a 2 day fighting pistol class reasonably and effectively.

This was with regards to your training and using a 1911 as a bat.

But as you are a Tactical Response alumni, this should be easy.

Please answer this question:

You are visiting family in Alaska. Concealed carry is legal for you.

Someone in your family is being beaten by 3 people in the parking lot surrounded by a crowd.

You see them being kicked in the head while on the ground right outside the door of the 7-11. You could not see it until now due to items and crowd in the way.

You draw your gun , and order them to stop. They refuse, and kick him in the head again.

You raise your firearm to shoot someone kicking your friend who is on the ground. They are aiming to stomp on his the head.

As you are pulling the trigger, someone from the crowd grabs your gun and tries to take it away. It does not go BANG. They threaten your life while doing so, and you struggle briefly, but easily take the gun away. You are now surrounded, in grappling distance with one opponent, and 3 others are aiming to curb stomp your family member.

What are your next steps?

List reasons your firearm may not have fired. Specify if you are carrying 1911 or Glock.

How were you holding your weapon when you fired and drew? Now that you have retention of it in what position do you have it.

List anything I may have missed or a step that may or may not have been necessary.

The sheriff asks you what happened, what do you respond?

Then there is a second question based on your answers.

OP, we can take this somewhere else if you like, or stay here if you don't mind the OT. This is related to the use of either a 1911 or glock in a survival situation.

 

[yyyyy]

For me, it's like this....

1911 in .45ACP if I am punching paper at the range or plinking for fun.

If it was a SHTF scenario, and all I had to go with was one pistol, it would be a Glock 22 .40 cal with full cap mags.....

Too bad there's not a "both" option in the poll....

NAA.

Why in .40?????

 

[yyyyy]

Slightly OT here:

Justin, it seems as though you have a passion for training. While I am not sure where it may be privately available you may be better served by taking some more varied training. Somewhere that teaches proper shielding, distance movement and appropriate use of countermeasures. Scenario based training that employs proper decision making, use of force and unarmed fighting and live fire using sims. Only then (outside of the real deal) does one realize how fast things change and not everything turns on your choice of firearm or whether or not you can pull that 300 dollar tactical folder quickly.

But it is a STRIDER!!!!!

 

[yyyyy]

For those saying that a Glock is more reliable well we will have to wait and see. This is my IPSC gun a 1911A1 built in 1942. It is 67 years old and goes bang everytime.

Firstly. That is pure awesome.

You are seriously running a 1942 build? Much respect. Mods? Smithing?

Secondly, I wonder how much tuning and how many armorers have worked on it in 67 years? Thus, as cool as your heat is, I disagree with the validity of your argument.

See my above "pink slip" post...

 

[eigenvector]

Decockers are far safer than lowering the hammer manually. For starters, if you are lowering the hammer manually, you need some training. Second, if your pistol does not have a decocker its either a POS or a single action pistol and you shouldn't be lowering the hammer. Third, pistols with decockers prevent the hammer from striking the firing pin as well as preventing access to the primer. manually dropping the hammer does not, you're simply slowing the natural action of the hammer. Last, can you decock one handed?

TDC

I have to agree with this. Discussion of decocking a 1911 is only marginally relevant because I can't think of any situation where you would actually want to do that. There's a reason why decocking a 1911 isn't easy without practice - it's because you're not supposed to do it.

Why anyone would use a method with such a catastrophic failure mode - a nasty case of slide bite and an ND - when there are so many better options available is beyond me. Carrying a decocked or half-cocked 1911 is a solution to a problem that no longer exists.

 

[Justins1877]

I have assumed nothing. And would love to know what close quarters confrontations, retention, and close shooting training you have. Clearly this cannot all be covered in a 2 day fighting pistol class reasonably and effectively.

This was with regards to your training and using a 1911 as a bat.

But as you are a Tactical Response alumni, this should be easy.

Please answer this question:

You are visiting family in Alaska. Concealed carry is legal for you.

Someone in your family is being beaten by 3 people in the parking lot surrounded by a crowd.

You see them being kicked in the head while on the ground right outside the door of the 7-11. You could not see it until now due to items and crowd in the way.

You draw your gun , and order them to stop. They refuse, and kick him in the head again.

You raise your firearm to shoot someone kicking your friend who is on the ground. They are aiming to stomp on his the head.

As you are pulling the trigger, someone from the crowd grabs your gun and tries to take it away. It does not go BANG. They threaten your life while doing so, and you struggle briefly, but easily take the gun away. You are now surrounded, in grappling distance with one opponent, and 3 others are aiming to curb stomp your family member.
Is the whole crowd hostile to me? If so how many?

What are your next steps?

List reasons your firearm may not have fired. Specify if you are carrying 1911 or Glock.
If I was licened to CCW, I have stated it would be a Glock. Bad primer, perhaps the gun wasn't in battery, I didn't have my finger placed properly on the tirgger disengaging the saftey, When someone was tyring to pull my gun away they could have open the slide. If that were the case no gun is immune to a press check.

How were you holding your weapon when you fired and drew? Now that you have retention of it in what position do you have it.
I'm going to have the weapon as close to my body as possible. My body isn't going to be facing the attacker, that way I can have my weapon far as possible to avoid reach. I'm then going to turn my gun on it's side, that way my shirt doesn't cause a stoppage. You didn't say how far they were, so i'm going to assume they are close enough to grab my gun, and go from there.

List anything I may have missed or a step that may or may not have been necessary. How many were hostile, how close everyone is, day or night, Children?

The sheriff asks you what happened, what do you respond? I was defending my life and my family, I want a lawyer.

Then there is a second question based on your answers.

OP, we can take this somewhere else if you like, or stay here if you don't mind the OT. This is related to the use of either a 1911 or glock in a survival situation.

Don't answer any of this, I will get back to this later. I have dinner to go to.

As am I. I've posted my credentials before. Somehow you as well as many others assume I'm an "expert". I never indicated such nor do I pretend to be. I apply logic and sound tactics to an argument, not hollywood BS or illogical "what ifs".

The potential for a firearm failure is very real, as is the potential for the assailant to close distance and/or end up on top. As YYYYY pointed out, you need supplemental training for such situations because your choice in firearm doesn't make much difference. Especially in the later case. As for failures, I'll put a Glock against any other gun out there with full confidence that it will outlast it.

Do you have an answer to my question?

TDC

Sorry, what question? Questions usually have a question mark behind it.

 

[yyyyy]

They are now stomping on your buddies head...
How are you dealing with it?

You do not know if the whole crowd is hostile, however, 4 have been identified by the scenario as described.

 

[4runner]

The title say's it all. What would you rather have???

No more threads about this topic. It like a really BAD "Ground hog day". MODS Could you please sticky after 99 pages?!

 

[yyyyy]

LOL... Agreed. Or lock and say "USE SEARCH FUNCTION".

However, since these fall into tactics discussions, we should also have a forum for that.

 

[v65magnafan]

One of each. They're not that expensive.

 

[Nick E]

Last, can you decock one handed?

actually I can quite easily. my thumb is under my control, so any incident would be due to human error. with a decocking lever, you have a mechanical device, and any mechanical device can fail. so with a glock you have the potential for human error as well as mechanical failure. the 1911 is a proven and effective combat pistol. period. give me a list of major world conflicts in which the glock has seen action. this of course excludes the Crips and Bloods. just because police and gangs carry glocks doesn't make me think they are anything than a firearm made to suit a group that doesn't know how to use a gun and need the simplest form possible. in another 70 years, if the glock is still running strong let me know, but what I am very confident in is that in 70 years, the 1911 will still be coming out by the masses

YES!!! Jamie I'm glad you got the ball's to say what all us 1911 fans are thinking. Yo TDC got

 

[Nick E]

No more threads about this topic. It like a really BAD "Ground hog day". MODS Could you please sticky after 99 pages?!

I ask'd what do you think about a 1911 or glock? NOT if you like my poll or not:stfun00

 

[yyyyy]

If you already know, and made up your mind? What did you want to poll for?

Frost,

Since the glock didn't exist 60 years ago, how about we look at special forces units, instructors, PSD Teams, veterans and soldiers using Glock vs 1911 in the last 5 years?

How many 1911's are currently being used by combat forces vs glocks? Other than gold plated ones in Africa, and of course the crips and bloods.

 

[Nick E]

If you already know, and made up your mind? What did you want to poll for?

What???? cuz I wanted to know what the masses think

 

[Jamie Frost]

If you already know, and made up your mind? What did you want to poll for?

Frost,

Since the glock didn't exist 60 years ago, how about we look at special forces units, instructors, PSD Teams, veterans and soldiers using Glock vs 1911 in the last 5 years?

How many 1911's are currently being used by combat forces vs glocks? Other than gold plated ones in Africa, and of course the crips and bloods.

which special forces and soldiers are you referring to? setting aside the obvious Police forces. any non 3rd world countries?? how combat proven is the glock compared to a 1911? has the glock been used in any major world conflicts I am not aware of? please, let me here you say that the glock is the more time tested combat pistol. pure bull####. the 1911 has seen real combat, not just city shootouts with drug dealers. the 1911 has been replaced as of late as far as side arms go, but it hasn't been replaced in the military by the glock. Id be curious to see, if it was issued as standard to the U.S or Canadian armed forces, (actually I wouldnt wish that on any man going into combat), how long it would take for the plastic pieces of #### to cost lives of our men. Police dont (usually) have to deal with the same elements that Soldiers in combat have to deal with. so the argument that so many cops use them is a stupid comparison to me. not the same environment, not the same operator, not the same combat conditions. even if one was to argue that the 9mm is a better cartridge for combat, (which I totally disagree with) a glock would be one of my last choices. in fact if I got a glock for free, I would sell the plastic sissy pistol for a real, proven, time tested gun. each to their own, but as far as which is a better combat pistol, 1911 period. there is no argument

 

[TDC]

For starters, lets have a look at the plethora of contactors overseas who run Glocks. Aside from that lets look at who issues them:

Europe
UK Armed Police units: SO19, London Met Police Soctland Armed Police, RUC.
Belgium: ESI, Antwerp BBT
Germany: GSG9, SEK units
Austria: Military and GEK Cobra
France: Gign, Raid, Gipn (Glock was one of approved pistols for issue and use )
Poland: GROM, some Swat units
Dutch armed forces
Norwegian armed forces
Swedish armed forces
Italian army special forces
Icelandic police
Spanish UEI

Asia Pacific
Hong Kong Police: Glock 17 19 for water police, ASDU and SDU
Australia: Nsw, Qld, W.A, N.T Pol all have Glock 22 as standard issue
Tas and A.F.P use Glock 17

Some others
Brazilian police
Dubai police
Iraq police
Israeli Army
Israeli police

I hear the US Green berets are looking into G19's as is SFOD-D or "Delta". So for such a great pistol with such a great record, why has the Glock dominated the market in just 25 years? You said it, the 1911 is a better pistol with "real combat experience". I'm having a hard time understanding their success. Oh hold on, I got it...."They're cheap!"

TDC
ETA: My question from a couple posts ago.

What's more important, shooting the bad guy or not getting shot?