1911 or Glock ( what do you think?? )
- Thread starter Nick E
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That means regardless of Caliber,1911 and Glocks comes with a varities of calibers.I Collect 1911's and Glocks.........I would prefer a GLOCK over a 1911,but SIGS are the best.......
Also:
Indian Military , Jordan Military, Thailand, the Phillipines, Ecuadorian National Police, Colombia, Latvia Armed Forces, Slovenian Armed Forces, Malaysian Military, Lithuanian Armed Forces, Taiwanese National Intelligence, South Korean Army, Romanian Special Forces, Sri Lankan National Police, Spanish Guardia Civil
For those saying that a Glock is more reliable well we will have to wait and see. This is my IPSC gun a 1911A1 built in 1942. It is 67 years old and goes bang everytime.
I could describe how I feel about someone taking a 1942 USGI and making a "target gun" or "competition gun" out of it, but it's better described with this:
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NAA.
Validity? It is not an argument it is an observation. The gun is 67 years old and runs perfectly. Maybe a Glock will to. I bought one in 1989 it was fussy, but the later generations that I see now work great.
A bit of clarification. I prefer my 1911A1 to any glock. I know that if I ever need it to work it will. Because it has sent thousands of rounds down range without any malfunction.
Now if the question was which do you recommend for a defensive pistol. I would recommend a Glock. Every one and thier dog makes a 1911. Some are great and some are not so great. However every current manufacture glock seems to work well.
You decock a SA pistol that is "empty" but never at the range?
So you've completely missed the first fundamental rule of firearms handling, "Treat all firearms as if they are loaded". Aside from that you engage in an action with an "unloaded" firearm that you don't practice with a "loaded" gun at the range. Why are you wasting time and effort on a skill you don't and won't use???
TDC
I prefer the lack of safety devices and external hammers on firearms these days...and as long as its not made in China.
I have several glocks and for the price they're good pistols. However, i'd grab my hk p7 first and keep it last.
I have several glocks and for the price they're good pistols. However, i'd grab my hk p7 first and keep it last.
Jamie Frost
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- Calgary AB
WOW! I said other than police forces and gangbangers, and most of the units you just stated are police or law enforcement with a few millitary units (if you even count France as that). so thank you for proving my point. also, yes glocks are cheap and have been popular for the last few years, thank you pop culture. plastic POS for newbies
With Novega's post I count 22 Armed forces or military units running Glocks and I'm sure there are many more. If the 1911 is so "superior" why are all the units above and the countless LE dept's running Glocks? Why has Glock dominated the market in just 25 years? These questions you still have not answered.
You mention that Glocks are "plastic POS for newbies". Have you ever shot one? Do you have any professional training? What do you base your statement on? Based on your avatar photo, you have neither the skills nor the intellect to debate the topic. As for pop culture, straighten your f*cking hat. You look like you got dressed in the dark with Kevin Federline as your role model.
TDC
You mention that Glocks are "plastic POS for newbies". Have you ever shot one? Do you have any professional training? What do you base your statement on? Based on your avatar photo, you have neither the skills nor the intellect to debate the topic. As for pop culture, straighten your f*cking hat. You look like you got dressed in the dark with Kevin Federline as your role model.
TDC
Glocks are used simply because, they have no external safteys. That means less user error when engaged in actual combat. I think of it as the same idea as the pump release on shotguns. I have read of police pumping a live shell out when a firefight erupts. Using a 1911 or similar style pistol, a user could forget to disengage the saftey, that means you've just run out of time my friend. 0-10 ft human beings can close the distance in less then 1 second. Bottom line, is a GLOCK better then a 1911? That comes right down to personal choice. Full size 1911's are heavy, although they do make them in sub compacts, such as the EMP, Kinda Carry,ect.. I'm one of the people fighting to get CCW brought here in Canada, so intill be do have that RIGHT it really doesn't matter.
What is more important, not getting shot - or shooting the bad guy? For me not getting shot is more important.
1 shot could = dead simple as that. If you are dead what differance does it make you hit and killed, or hit and wounded, fired and missed?
What is more important, not getting shot - or shooting the bad guy? For me not getting shot is more important.
1 shot could = dead simple as that. If you are dead what differance does it make you hit and killed, or hit and wounded, fired and missed?
I'll preface by saying that I've carried Glocks flagship models (17/19/22) ON DUTY in Canada, the US, and overseas. I've also carried a 1911 in Iraq and the US. I own a G17, 2xG19s, G22, and a Springfield Operator 1911.
Glocks are reliable, robust, simple, cheap, and easy to maintain.
1911s in general require far more maintaince, tuning etc. If standard 1911s are so great out of the box why are there so many companies producing Custom Shop, Pro, etc models? There wouldn't be a market for them if the standard model didn't need work. A tuned 1911 is a work of art.
For military/LE general issue there is no debate about the superior pistol. The Glock for reasons mentioned above fits the bill, RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX. Yes, there are 1911s out there that are reliable. My Operator is one of them. So is the 1943 model 1911 I carried in Iraq. However, it was tuned by a 5th SFG Weapons Sgt with considerable experience in working on 1911s.
As for experience with pistols modern LE officer vs. a WW2 vet? WTF? Are we going to ask the vets to compare a MP-5 vs. a Sten too? I respect the old dudes' experience but most of them only know what they were issued, it's not like they had the choice in what they carried, regardless of how reliable or effective it was. I'll let you in on a little secret about pistols as well, they very rarely get to kill people in wars.
To sum up...If I had a choice in what I trust my life to I'd carry a G19. It's reliable, fits my hand well, small enough to be used in a concealed role, decent mag capacity, and again is RELIABLE.
Glocks are reliable, robust, simple, cheap, and easy to maintain.
1911s in general require far more maintaince, tuning etc. If standard 1911s are so great out of the box why are there so many companies producing Custom Shop, Pro, etc models? There wouldn't be a market for them if the standard model didn't need work. A tuned 1911 is a work of art.
For military/LE general issue there is no debate about the superior pistol. The Glock for reasons mentioned above fits the bill, RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX. Yes, there are 1911s out there that are reliable. My Operator is one of them. So is the 1943 model 1911 I carried in Iraq. However, it was tuned by a 5th SFG Weapons Sgt with considerable experience in working on 1911s.
As for experience with pistols modern LE officer vs. a WW2 vet? WTF? Are we going to ask the vets to compare a MP-5 vs. a Sten too? I respect the old dudes' experience but most of them only know what they were issued, it's not like they had the choice in what they carried, regardless of how reliable or effective it was. I'll let you in on a little secret about pistols as well, they very rarely get to kill people in wars.
To sum up...If I had a choice in what I trust my life to I'd carry a G19. It's reliable, fits my hand well, small enough to be used in a concealed role, decent mag capacity, and again is RELIABLE.
Ths comment makes no sense unless you are raising your own Army. The fact the Latvian Army uses Glocks is of little value to me who shoots Action Pistol, steel plates and tin cans none of which likely interests the Latvian Army. Why not suggest I buy a Glock because David Savigny won the US IDPA Nationals using a Glock. It would have about as much relevance. David Savigny could and would win shooting a water gun on most days.
Too, the British Army uses the High Power as does the Cdn Army. The US Army uses the Beretta. Just a guess but I suggest if you were chosing sides you might want to be on the side of the armies who use something other than the Glock or do you really think the Latvian Armys use of the Glock has any meaningful input into these discussions. Can't remember the last time the Latvians were in a meaningful conflict....can you?
Take Care
Bob
I have trouble picking either, My first Glock on the fifth round of factory ammo blew a trigger spring. I have seen range glocks frames and slides crack many of times at TSE while working there, sometimes after not many rounds.
I love the feel and how fast and easy the 1911 points for me, but I wouldnt own an un-tuned one, nor would I trust any other ammo than Ball in one.
I guess if it was an out of the box gun I would still pick a Glock or a USP since I would trust it would work without being broken in, But for my choice in courses right now I love to use my 1911.
One article that comes to mind was a case study in guns and weapons for LE. In the study they basically discussed that a Pistol such as a Glock, with no safety, Is very simple for anyone to use. In the hands of anyone it is simple point and shoot, if there is no malfunction. Just last monday I took a buddy shooting for his first time and he easily handled and accurately shot my glock 19. I have heard arguments of missing or forgetting the safety, however I dont think you can blame that on the firearms as it is total user error and proper training with the firearm you would choose to carry would prevent this. To me unengaging the safety on a 1911 is very natural, to the point that when I shoot my glock i usually go through the action and end up holding my slide lock down. Basically if my pistol were taken from me I would want the safeties of the 1911 to get in the way of a possibly untrained BG trying to shoot me, even if just to buy me a few seconds.
As for stopping power comparison I don't think it is relevant in decision since both pistols are offered in many calibers.
From a military stand point I feel that by the time I make it to my Pistol I am already in a bad situation and am generally covering myself until I can get my primary weapon back into service (clear malfunction/ borrow ammo). That being said Id just be happy to have any reliable pistol in any caliber to resort to.
So my choice is to pick the pistol you shoot better and feels better, then spend many hours training with your choice.
I love the feel and how fast and easy the 1911 points for me, but I wouldnt own an un-tuned one, nor would I trust any other ammo than Ball in one.
I guess if it was an out of the box gun I would still pick a Glock or a USP since I would trust it would work without being broken in, But for my choice in courses right now I love to use my 1911.
One article that comes to mind was a case study in guns and weapons for LE. In the study they basically discussed that a Pistol such as a Glock, with no safety, Is very simple for anyone to use. In the hands of anyone it is simple point and shoot, if there is no malfunction. Just last monday I took a buddy shooting for his first time and he easily handled and accurately shot my glock 19. I have heard arguments of missing or forgetting the safety, however I dont think you can blame that on the firearms as it is total user error and proper training with the firearm you would choose to carry would prevent this. To me unengaging the safety on a 1911 is very natural, to the point that when I shoot my glock i usually go through the action and end up holding my slide lock down. Basically if my pistol were taken from me I would want the safeties of the 1911 to get in the way of a possibly untrained BG trying to shoot me, even if just to buy me a few seconds.
As for stopping power comparison I don't think it is relevant in decision since both pistols are offered in many calibers.
From a military stand point I feel that by the time I make it to my Pistol I am already in a bad situation and am generally covering myself until I can get my primary weapon back into service (clear malfunction/ borrow ammo). That being said Id just be happy to have any reliable pistol in any caliber to resort to.
So my choice is to pick the pistol you shoot better and feels better, then spend many hours training with your choice.
I'm not disputing your post. I was responding to another CGN members request of which militaries are running Glocks. I'm not interested in convincing the gamer that the Glock is right for them. Much of what makes the Glock shine is lost in the gaming arena. Not saying it couldn't, wouldn't, or hasn't held its own because it surely has. I'm just saying that the Glock lineup wasn't intended as a gaming gun.
TDC
All firearms break, its a fact of life. Glocks break less often than other guns.
Glocks have safeties, three of them. They're all passive which means they require no "positive" input from the operator.
Choosing a pistol with manual safeties based on the "what if" that someone might disarm you and not have the skills to function the pistol is lame. For starters, you indicate you swipe the safety off when drawing which means the pistol is now a "point and pull" setup which applies to you and the scumbag who took it from you. Second, if some scumbag takes your gun, it probably wasn't done without the use of blunt force trauma. You'll have bigger concerns than whether or not he has the ability to operate your pistol. Even so, what would a few seconds buy you after he's beat your face in and taken your piece? Fail...
TDC
No Manual safeties would you rather? If you read I Explained why I would pick each pistol for much more reasons than that. In my experience I have seen glocks break just as much as any other gun and the fact that all firearms break is exactly what I am trying to get across since I have heard a few times in this thread that ppl would pick it because they "never do."
I did indicate I draw and take the safety off, however I was relating more to a LE situation that described someone who wouldn't, as in a holstered firearm which would not likely involve blunt force. In that case a few seconds where he pulls the trigger without a Bang a partner could fire upon him, I could get to cover, or if you have one get to a backup gun. Also the chance that he will escape the situation himself. You seem to be describing a situation where once he has hit you and grabbed your firearm you are giving up, which I myself would have to fully immobile to do.
Massad Ayoob has tracked a number of cases where a manual safety has saved the lives of police officers who lost control of their gun. In the same vein some guns with magazine safeties also did as well, basically the owner has a 'kill switch' if they are in a struggle for the gun.
I'll PM Mas on The High Road and ask him to post here if people doubt those cases. The presence of a safety is yet another 'piece of the puzzle' that people have to decide on when picking a gun. It is not the only reason to pick a gun but to dismiss it shows a lack of consideration for various aspects of carrying a gun.
Some scumbags in the US also train in weapon disarms using leverage.
That being said, I currently tend to favor plastic pistols without a safety myself.
I'll PM Mas on The High Road and ask him to post here if people doubt those cases. The presence of a safety is yet another 'piece of the puzzle' that people have to decide on when picking a gun. It is not the only reason to pick a gun but to dismiss it shows a lack of consideration for various aspects of carrying a gun.
Some scumbags in the US also train in weapon disarms using leverage.
That being said, I currently tend to favor plastic pistols without a safety myself.
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