1911 vs ?the world? Why do you like it?

Myself I own only one 1911, actually it's the Colt 1991A1 full size with the big and ugly roll marks on the slide. It's reliable with good magazines and if I don't goof up my handloads. No mods of any kind, other than the Hogue overmoulded rubber grip. Feeds hardball & 200 grain SWC equally well. I'm going to wade in on the 10 round mags. Try to find an uber reliable 45 ACP single stack 10 rounder. They are hard to find IMO. Tell you what, save yourself some money and greif and stop at a better name brand and 8 shots. I've had spotty success with the Mecgars (10 shot) , the blued one was just fine, but the stainless steel one was horrible. Forget about Ramline, (also 10 shot) they had so many stoppages I've stopped using them outright. Junk! Maybe JMB never thought about 1911 relaibility with 10 shot magazines, so perhaps this is a hint? Just maybe.....
The companion handguns for this 1911 are an old but strurdy Brazilian M1937 & a S&W Model 25-2. With cheap and available moonclips these old time stallwarts can be reloaded super fast. Especially with bullets of rounded profile so common with 45 ACP.
It does not hurt that they are both plenty accurate. The better sights on the 25-2 just spoil me. I never got around to getting a 625, time and chance always worked against me.
I have yet to decide on another 1911. So many 45 autos out there.
 
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On a recent course the only guns that puked were 1911's, mostly on the second day as a result of being run moderately hard and not being cleaned. The guns that did the exact same course without puking were Glocks, M&P's, an HK and one lonely (not high end) 1911 that got cleaned after the 250 round first day. When people talk about 1911's the problem is that "1911" could describe anything from a $349 Norc - most of which are quite reliable due to loose tolerances (like the GI guns) up to a $6 or $7,000 full custom gun thats so tight it takes 1,000 rounds to break in. Is the "1911" easier to shoot, yes- can it be reliable, yes - will it make it easier to hit your target than a gun with a long heavy trigger pull, sure it will. Or not. I've shot "1911"'s with 8lb triggers, gritty take up and sloppy overtravel. I've seen 1911's that wouldn't feed 230 grain ball, and wouldn't eject the brass after being coerced into loading. Most 1911's come from the factory needing an extractor tune, even today. 1911's require you to know each individual gun, to shoot them regularly to maintain familiarity with that particular gun and retain the skill set required not just to get hits, but to know when something's not quite right, or heading south. If you just want to pull the gun out at the range load up and pull the trigger, the 1911 isn't the best gun to have. As far as recoil goes, I had an M&P in 45, the recoil of the M&P was softer than the recoil of my m1911 - polymer frames do not in any way increase felt recoil.
 
^ +1

I agree with enefgee. I have had 1911's from norks to a Wilson Combat and all have had failures not related to ammo. I have also seen it numerous times in IPSC, black badge, IDPA etc.
 
Sambaru said:
The perceived reliability issues with 1911s is a combination of an over-saturation of aftermarket parts combined with end users with insufficient knowledge of the platform and maintenance how to. A properly built and maintained 1911 is just as reliable as anything else and for anyone who disagrees, see the last half of my previous sentence :p.

I do echo what others have said though and I love my 1911 but if poop hits the fan, I would grab something else (M&P) just because I likely won't be able to perform the needed maintenance (for example will I even have access to lube?).

As with every rule there are exceptions but I don't need to look any further than my former workplace (a rental range). The 1911s (STI Trojans and Ranger II) are the top 3 in terms of most rented guns (along with Glock 17/34s and CZ Shadows). ~1,000,000 rounds of 9mm a year and prob over half of that is through these top 3 rented guns and the 1911s are 2nd place in terms of reliability and durability (Glock being #1). While other guns have parts breakages and start to fall apart, the Glocks and STI 1911s keep on going with barrel rifling wearing out before any other part. It's pretty crazy to see, especially considering range guns are not treated as nice as most people would treat their personal guns. Big difference is the 1911 does need to get lube regularly whereas the Glocks are rarely lubed.
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So, you are saying 1911's are just a reliable as Glocks if you treat them differently?.... hmmm.:confused:
 
i've put over 500 rounds through my 1911 in one outing without a single failure to feed, fire or cycle. The slide locks back every time on an empty mag. My 1911 is a Sig Sauer though, so that has a bit to do with it.

I use high end grease in my 1911 and after about 1000 rounds it's getting dirty enough to warrant a full cleaning and re-greasing. In my opinion the 1911 is a pretty dirty running pistol, compared to my P226, which can go about 2500 rounds before cleaning and re-greasing. One tube of Mobil 1 XHP 462 Moly will last the lifetime of all my firearms, so assuming I don't lose the case of grease I have, I will never run out of lubricant for my firearms. The other nice thing with grease is that no solvent is needed for cleaning, just a rag/paper towel, wipe away the old grease and apply new grease.

My 1911 is equal to my P226 for reliability, so in a shtf situation I would grab whichever one I had the most ammo and magazine for, and at this time, that's my 1911.
 
enefgee said:
I had an M&P in 45, the recoil of the M&P was softer than the recoil of my m1911 - polymer frames do not in any way increase felt recoil.
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Nope, not unless Sir Issac Newton got it all wrong. Two guns shooting the same cartridges and one gun weighs less than the other; the lighter gun will generate more recoil. Simple physics.

The problem when you compare the two platforms is on the one hand you have one manufacturer making one style of gun (Glock) while on the other hand you have now a generic design being manufactured by several companies (1911). The Glock fan boys tend to ignore Glock is on their fourth edition of the Glock pistol. The latest iteration initially was anythiing but reliable and I am told all the problems may yet be resolved. That said the guns generally are very reliable, relatively inexpensive, light and popular with budget minded departments.

For what it is worth my Trojan 9MM has yet to have a failure of any kind but then neither has my M&P or my CZ 85 Combat that were not directly related to poor ammo fabrication.

Take Care

Bob
 
Canuck44 said:
Nope, not unless Sir Issac Newton got it all wrong. Two guns shooting the same cartridges and one gun weighs less than the other; the lighter gun will generate more recoil. Simple physics.

Bob
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It isn't that simple, felt recoil and measured recoil are two very different critters. While the grip angle of the 2 pistols is the same, the bore axis of the M&P is lower (in my hand) the frame is made of a compressible polymer, versus a much less compressible steel, there is a difference in the locking mechanism, grip contour and the recoil assembly. All of the above affect felt recoil. Clearly I wasn't referring to measured recoil in the above since there are very few places in Canada with the facilities to accurately measure recoil, and my house certainly isn't one of them.:D
 
1911's are fun. Thats why we shoot them. There like british cars and are finnicky. The paper I shoot isn't trying to kill me so the odd FTF or FTE doesn't really matter. If I ever need to trust my life to my pistol I have a striker-fired plastic gun. Use the right tool for the job right?
 
Dr.K said:
1911's are fun. Thats why we shoot them. There like british cars and are finnicky. The paper I shoot isn't trying to kill me so the odd FTF or FTE doesn't really matter. If I ever need to trust my life to my pistol I have a striker-fired plastic gun. Use the right tool for the job right?
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I think the Century of use, production, and following of the 1911 suggests that it is still a very capable tool for the job.
 
It would be really interesting to see the roundcount lifetime span of a metal framed 1911 and something different with a polymer frame in the same calibre. Of course the metal slide (or alloy) muddies the issue. And I'm not talking about small parts failure or KBs from improper handloads. Even a worn out barrel would not qualify. But something in the nature of non-repairable damage, such as worn to limits slide rails or a serious crack in the frame in a critical area. Beyond economic repair.

Does someone know of an unbiased informational study such as this, from a disinterested third party?
 
Brutis check out the original US Army tests fir the 1911.
"
THE TEST: MARCH 15 1911
The Ordnance Command narrowed the field to two guns: the Savage .45 Caliber Pistol, Model 1911 and the Colt Model of 1911 Special Army. Over the course of two days, the pair went head to head in a duel to the death, so to speak.
Each pistol was to fire 6,000 rounds, in 100-shot strings, after which, the gun would be allowed to cool off for five minutes. After every 1,000 rounds, the firearm would be cleaned and oiled prior to resuming the test. In addition, each weapon would be required to shoot damaged/dirty/rusted ammunition, to simulate conditions encountered in battle.
Think about it. Each bullet weighs 230 grains; there were 6,000 bullets, which works out to about 197 pounds of lead blowing down the barrel, and the shooters’ hands probably ended up in worse shape than the gun’s mechanisms.
The Savage performed admirably: only 37 breaks or malfunctions in 6,000 rounds.
The Colt Model of 1911 Special Army met expectations: no breaks, malfunctions or problems while doing the job it was supposed to do: shoot 6,000 rounds."

Not sure if that helps. Polymer melts when it gets to hot.;)

Take Care

Bob
 
I know you may not need to clean some guns as often but if your cleaning routine was 1000 rounds, isn't it fair to assume that after that many shots you should be cleaning the gun? We're all going to the range then heading back home, if anyone is doing black ops work in a jungle feel free to pick something with a longer cleaning cycle.

I haven't started shooting yet but when I do I *plan* (we all know how plans work) to take a trip to the range, then when I'm back home do either a half or full clean. It's a hobby why not make a nice routine out of it and spend time with your firearms that doesn't cost anything but effort and makes you familiar with your guns?

Long story short 1000 rounds sounds like a long time to me.
 
well, that's 20 boxes- and in my book, a LOT of shooting- but i patch after every magazine, or 3- you wonder why 3- well, my pouches take 2 and one in the gun-it takes me roughly an hour to go 100 rounds of solid shooting- 1k rounds would be 10 hours- i don't think my conscience would let me have a gun that dirty, given my training
 
Even without training, 1000 rounds without cleaning shows no love for the firearm or discipline to keep your tool in good shape.

Brutus made a good point, I can't haven't heard of "full parts failure" even though I'm rather new to guns. Personally I hate hearing people refer to polymer as plastic, same as most of you hate clip/magazine being used as the same word.

Canuck nailed it as well, if testing was 6k rounds with a clean every 1k then it's expected that men (women ;)) in the field will clean every 1000 rounds or may expect a failure. Sounds fair.

If your in a SHTF situation where your blasting 1000 rounds without cleaning the world has gone to s*hit and you've got much bigger fish to fry (carp?, no crap)

So all in all, there are other many lovely guns, but treat your 1911 nice, don't mess with the design and a gun that's a hundred years senior will still stack up well in today's market? At least here in Canada to punch paper?
I'm sure I will own a Glock/poly gun and maybe other steel guns like a CZ but there's no real reason NOT to look into 1911s.

I gotta say, as a new comer to this it's nice to see honest opinions without the regular bashing that forums tend to display.
I was wondering "why own a 1911" now I'm closer to why not?
Can't say I'll grab one tomorrow but it's on the list and will be considered and looked for when the chance comes.

Feel free to continue this thread, there are things in here I haven't read yet so I'm sure its the same for others.

Edit: T-Star I don't shoot yet, but after every mag? that may be too far on the other side of the scale, if I need to clean mid range trip then maybe it's not the best choice either. I plan on blasting 22lr till I'm happy enough to head home then clean, but while I'm there... I'm not interested in that.
 
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NavyCuda said:
If you used the grease I do, you would agree that 1000 is a reasonable service interval, I think it could go as far as the P226 does honestly.
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Mobil 1 XHP 462 Moly? After 1000 rounds I'd think people should consider a cleaning, if that lube can keep the gun running to 1k you should do your part and clean it up for the next 1k.
Sounds fair to me, if the gun will shoot 1000 what more do you really want? I know ray guns don't need that maintenance but those are still not on the market yet.

Side note not related to anything: You know that scroll bar on the side of your trackpad on laptops? I'm going to kill mine :mad:
 
James Howlett said:
Mobil 1 XHP 462 Moly? After 1000 rounds I'd think people should consider a cleaning, if that lube can keep the gun running to 1k you should do your part and clean it up for the next 1k.
Sounds fair to me, if the gun will shoot 1000 what more do you really want? I know ray guns don't need that maintenance but those are still not on the market yet.

Side note not related to anything: You know that scroll bar on the side of your trackpad on laptops? I'm going to kill mine :mad:
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The first time around is to see how far I'm comfortable taking it, which was about 1500 the first time with the 1911, like I said it seems to run dirty compared to the P226, but I was using titegroup which is also pretty dirty powder.

I usually put 100-500 rounds through the 1911 at each range visit without issue. Since it's all stainless and isn't going to rust away on me, I am a little more lax on cleaning intervals.

Reality is the only point that needs re-lubricating regularly is the rails. They take all of about 15 seconds to clean and re-grease. I use high velocity copper to clean the bore, no accuracy issues thus far.
 
The 1911 has the classic lines of a thourghbred, it is the Harley Davidison of handguns, classic, Iconic but like the Harley's...

There has been over 400 companies that have produced a verson of a 1911, but not a single industry standard between any of them, this combimed with many after market parts suppliers and again, no industry standard.

This makes tuning, fixing a 1911 a hit or miss when replacing parts. If the part doesn't fit properly always work the part, not the gun.

If there was an ISO 9002+ standard for the 1911 pistols and parts, a lot of problems would disappear. Imagine a 1911 that keeps on working with a dependability of modern designed pistols.

I love my 1911's, but i prefer my plastic, In my job in Afghanistan I have only seen three 1911's, the rest have been polymer pistols. Of those three I asked them how they are holding up on the range... nothing but problems, but they looked sweet they said.

The 1911 is probably the most reconized pistol in the world, classic beauty... much like a Trophy Wife... great to be seen with... but too much high maintenance.
 
Ok, little experience from an old bullseye shooter. My wadcutter is a 70 series Gold Cup accurized by Lew Muller (Billings, MT) in 1979. It has had somewhere in the order of 30000 rounds through it, and while wad does not place the same strain on a gun as ball, this gun has never broken anything or worn out. It still shoots under 2 1/2 inches at 50 yards. It has evolved as it now carries an optical sight to compensate for my failing biology, and I redid the trigger 15 years ago. My other 1911 is one of the very few built by Bob Chow to make it to Canada. It was manufactured in 1943, and Chow accurized it in 1962. 50 years of use on the original parts. All that being said, for the US "ball" matches competitors figure that a fresh gun will degrade after 15-20000rounds and have to be "refreshed" but don't expect to replace parts. While cleaning rituals vary from one person to another, it is very common in western Canada to leave it till the gun starts malfunctioning. I clean ritually every 4 or 5 years, and never, ever start a match with a clean gun. On the other hand if I was carrying everyday, and my life depended on my pistol, I would indeed keep it clean, but more importantly make sure the ammo was good. Others of course express different opinions. Such is Life.

Dr Jim
 
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