1916 Winchester Model 1897

V

VLT79

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Athabasca, AB and FSJ, BC
An out-dated shotgun for the younger guys here, but for the older crowd that know true quality and workmanship...here are a few pics of a timeless classic!

Serial # is 6077xx "E" which would place it as very early 1916 production...making it 97 years young!!!

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Back in early February I bought this 12ga. 30" full choke barrelled Winchester Model 1897 from a gentleman that had it listed on the EE. It wound up getting "lost" by Canada Post. Today, to my surprise, I found it at the post office after it had been missing for over 3 weeks.

Anyway, it had a few light rust spots on it that came out pretty well but it also has some serious rust at the muzzle. Overall though, the gun is still in an impressive condition despite its age. I believe this gun is 100% original and I honestly don't think it has ever been fired either...after proofing that is!
 
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beretta boy said:
Nice ol' "knucklebuster" ... sure hasn't been shot much !
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After very close inspection earlier this morning I can say with 100% certainty that the only time this gun has been fired was by Winchester back in 1916 when they proofed it!!! It has not had another round fired in it since then. There are absolutely no marks whatsoever on the bolt face or in the chamber but it has been handled, cycled and dry fired a bit. Truly lucky to have had the opportunity to buy this gun as I know while it is in my possession it will not get cut up or modified to become a C.A.S. gun. Now the problem is to shoot it like it was intended to be? or stick it in the safe and keep it as an extremly rare, original and unfired specimen?
 
VLT79 said:
After very close inspection earlier this morning I can say with 100% certainty that the only time this gun has been fired was by Winchester back in 1916 when they proofed it!!! It has not had another round fired in it since then. There are absolutely no marks whatsoever on the bolt face or in the chamber but it has been handled, cycled and dry fired a bit. Truly lucky to have had the opportunity to buy this gun as I know while it is in my possession it will not get cut up or modified to become a C.A.S. gun. Now the problem is to shoot it like it was intended to be? or stick it in the safe and keep it as an extremly rare, original and unfired specimen?
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Seriously, not to be mean spirited, but while it may be in such great shape that it looks unfired, the odds are far from it being so.

How on earth can you possibly state with "100% certainty" it has not been fired other than original proof load by Winchester unless it has been in your personal closet since manufacture ?
It took a few boxes through any new shotguns of mine before one could start to see marking on the bolt faces/breeches.

That being said, it looks to be in fantastic condition, congrats on an awesome buy !
 
Yeah she is definitely a beauty, I had to clean up and refinish my 1910 one. Lightly cleaned the wood, leaving it "Period correct" by leaving the deep dings in it, and just hand rubbing oil into it, and since most of the bluing was gone, I just cleaned up the metal and bit the bullet and reblued it. Replaced the chipped hammer (Just for cosmetics sake gun still worked well) and now I have a nice shooter I enjoy taking out into the field. Still has the original tooling marks on the steel, so no one had ever tried a "Heavy sanding clean up".


I don't know about 1916 but my 1910 was an oil finish on the gun, did they offer different finishes or did someone re-finish the wood?
 
planemaker said:
Seriously, not to be mean spirited, but while it may be in such great shape that it looks unfired, the odds are far from it being so.

How on earth can you possibly state with "100% certainty" it has not been fired other than original proof load by Winchester unless it has been in your personal closet since manufacture ?
It took a few boxes through any new shotguns of mine before one could start to see marking on the bolt faces/breeches.

That being said, it looks to be in fantastic condition, congrats on an awesome buy !
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Within 3 rounds all guns bear pretty clear signs of being fired. The bolt face and firing pin are the 2 areas that will show some markings, however minute they may be, but they will still be present. Softer brass will always stick to the harder steel and the dis-coloration can be seen when it is magnified. The 1897 and M 12 have a 2 piece chamber (on take-down guns) and that joint will bear brass deposits as well. The firing pins on the earlier 1897s (not sure about the later ones) were blued and the very tip gets marked easily and quickly. This gun has no signs of anything. It was proofed, left the factory, was put away in a case and left that way for a very long time.

For me it doesn't really make the gun worth more, it just makes it a little more interesting. I've always believed guns were/are made to be used so this will be shot sooner than later. I can also say that this gun will not be sold as long as I am living!
 
Stray03 said:
Yeah she is definitely a beauty, I had to clean up and refinish my 1910 one. Lightly cleaned the wood, leaving it "Period correct" by leaving the deep dings in it, and just hand rubbing oil into it, and since most of the bluing was gone, I just cleaned up the metal and bit the bullet and reblued it. Replaced the chipped hammer (Just for cosmetics sake gun still worked well) and now I have a nice shooter I enjoy taking out into the field. Still has the original tooling marks on the steel, so no one had ever tried a "Heavy sanding clean up".


I don't know about 1916 but my 1910 was an oil finish on the gun, did they offer different finishes or did someone re-finish the wood?
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It's the original oil finish it only has one small ding on the wood from handling. All the stampings on the steel are sharp, crisp and period correct. The screws/screw slots are all in mint/prestine condition. The fit between the barrel/reciever assemblies is very tight and the barrel adjusting sleeve is still on the first notch. Minus the rust spots and muzzle rust this gun is exactly how it left the factory back in 1916.
 
VLT79 said:
.... Now the problem is to shoot it like it was intended to be? ....
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Gonna be hard to do now that the Migratory Game Bird Act is in force ! ;)

Let's see, 1916 .... market hunting, spring hunting, no, or very liberal limits, live decoys, punt guns, night shoots, etc.

A lot of the old 12 ga. pump guns like this one ( 1 in the chamber, 6 in the magazine ) were used to clean-up the cripples after a
shot with the punt gun was taken !
 
planemaker said:
Seriously, not to be mean spirited, but while it may be in such great shape that it looks unfired, the odds are far from it being so.

How on earth can you possibly state with "100% certainty" it has not been fired other than original proof load by Winchester unless it has been in your personal closet since manufacture ?
It took a few boxes through any new shotguns of mine before one could start to see marking on the bolt faces/breeches.

That being said, it looks to be in fantastic condition, congrats on an awesome buy !
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I'm not keen to rain on anyone's parade, either - especially regarding an 1897 (one of my personal favorites). I have 6 of them myself. However, I think planemaker has a point. In all my travels, I have never seen a 90+ year old shotgun with bright bluing (with the exception of refinished pieces). AFAIK, Winchester didn't ship the 1897 with gloss finished stocks, except the Black Diamond Trap model and possibly some of the late model production.

It's a beautiful example of an 1897 in fine condition - no doubt about that. I'd have to have better pics or see it in person to be certain but, based on the gloss finish, the condition of the bluing, and the oil-blackened wood behind the receiver that looks like it's been refinished, I'd be skeptical of any claim of original condition.
 
I would have to see it in person as well. The blue looks a little on the black side for original Winchester and a little too high of a polish before it was blued. Nice looking job just the same.
 
straightshooter said:
I'm not keen to rain on anyone's parade, either - especially regarding an 1897 (one of my personal favorites). I have 6 of them myself. However, I think planemaker has a point. In all my travels, I have never seen a 90+ year old shotgun with bright bluing (with the exception of refinished pieces). AFAIK, Winchester didn't ship the 1897 with gloss finished stocks, except the Black Diamond Trap model and possibly some of the late model production.

It's a beautiful example of an 1897 in fine condition - no doubt about that. I'd have to have better pics or see it in person to be certain but, based on the gloss finish, the condition of the bluing, and the oil-blackened wood behind the receiver that looks like it's been refinished, I'd be skeptical of any claim of original condition.
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Scroll half way down the page...an original 95% 1906 manufacture with dark high polished blue and gloss wood. As for the oil soaked wood on mine it's actually the grain that is darker and it runs all the way to the butt on the left side. h ttp://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=334476

I could very well be wrong about it though as I'm no 1897 expert. I do know that when the original owner, or rather his son (an old man today), found out it had been lost in the mail he was fairly upset about it because he had never shot it and was positive his father had never shot it either.

PM me and maybe I'll bring it down to you on sunday so you can take a look at it...I'm a little curious myself!
 
So VLT79 came down to Edmonton and brought the 1897 for me to look at. I was reasonably sure that it was refinished, so all I really needed to do was to find the evidence. It was bound to be there somewhere.

Instead, what I found was a clean example of a stock 1897 field gun. I expected to see the finish on the stock in better than possible condition, while almost invisible blemishes could be found beneath. It was the other way around. The wood finish is not nearly as nice as it appears in the photos. There are a few handling marks, as can be expected, but the major clue for me was the wear at the front edge where it mates with the back of the receiver, and again on the tailing edge where the the stock contacts the butt plate. In both places, slightly more wear is in evidence, and it feathers back unevenly into the finish from there. A gloss finish was not stock on this model to begin with. But, as VLT79 reminded me, Winchester was open to orders for specific fit and finish details.

But wood is only one detail and is more easily imitated. No amount of polishing and refinishing can monkey with tool marks on metal. And that was the truly convincing detail for me. I have an 1897 that was used sparingly and never refinished. Side-by-side in bright sunlight, I could see the tool marks on both guns glinting through the finish. Both receivers bore identical tool marks right down to the curvature of the polishing strokes. Unless this gun was so completely devoid of scratches or damage to the metal, it would be impossible to refinish the receiver without some polishing. The only possible conclusion, is that it's the original finish.

There were other instances where I had to reconsider, as well. For example, when I read about the rust at the muzzle I thought "A ha!! This is a possible result of the re-bluing process. The way the barrel was plugged at both ends during re-bluing, left the rim of the barrel unfinished and unprotected from rust". But, once closely examined, rust spots are also seen in remote areas of the barrel and barrel assembly. This is more consistent with storage damage.

So, bottom line is that I was treated to the opportunity to see a virtually unfired specimen. VLT79, it turns out, is a salt-of-the-earth gunnut, so we talked each other's ears off. Hours went by in what seemed like minutes, and I never even offered him a beer!?!
 
No need to worry about the beer straightshooter...I don't drink anyway! It was a true pleasure to meet a fellow gun nut, one that has experience behind the trigger, and also get a second opinion on the 1897!

Thanks again!
 
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