1955 No 4 MK 2 "in the wrap" sees the light of day PIC HEAVY!!

An excerpt copied from plonker @ gunboards.com

"Quick & dirty history of the Faz rifles.
Collected from differing sources so there is some duplication & some difference of opinion expressed.

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=34901
The so called "Irish Contract" rifles are in the serial range PF309348 to PF 359347.Most were never delivered and put in storage until sold as surplus.

The UF suffix rifles are generally identified as Ministry of Defense contract rifles thought to be for the RAF but put directly into storage and never issued. It is speculated the contract was a "make work" contract to keep the factory open.

http://www.arrse.co.uk/shooting-hunt...k4-no-2-a.html
The changeover from Mk1 to Mk2 production is believed to have occurred at rifle number "PF 100000".

Most of the last PF-marked Mk1s and early Mk2s seem to have gone to South Africa. Such rifles now appear with an SA property mark on the Knox form - an "arrow inside a U".

Because the British Army had millions of Mk1s in store they didn't need Mk2s, so most of the Mk2 production was done in batches for export to Commonwealth countries, or for commercial sale, or for RAF service.

An incomplete list:

PF301548-PF304047 Anglo-Egyptian Sudan
PF309348-PF359347 Irish Republic
PF359748-PF359817 Zambia
PF359818-PF359952 Singapore
PF359953-PF360052 Jamaica
PF360053-PF360202 Trinidad
PF360203-PF360238 St. Vincent
PF360239-PF360258 St. Kitts
PF360259-PF360459 War Office
PF360460-PF381159 Uganda
PF361160-PF361259 Parker Hale
PF361260-PF401086 Burma
PF401087-PF401459 Allocated for T conversion
PF404157-PF404206 Parker Hale
PF405393-PF405412 St. Vincent
PF405513-PF405712 Admiralty contract
PF405813-PF405848 Fulton
PF407649-PF407648 Trinidad
PF407649-PF407728 Zanzibar
PF411229-PF411264 Fulton
PF411265-PF411461 Kenya
PF411462-PF411471 Hong Kong

Some of these contracts were not delivered. A case in point being the "Irish Contract". Daft spams pay a premium for these because they think they're getting a piece of Oirish history. In fact most of the rifles never left UK warehouse until they were sold as surplus.

In 1954, the numbering system changed to the form "UF A###xx", which is the version still used today for the SA80. The 1950s "UF A ######" rifles are built to a better finish compared to most of the "PFs". These rifles were built for RAF use, but mostly stayed in store until they were sold off.
Royal Ordnance Factory Fazakerley
No 4 Mk II Production Serial Numbers


Looking at the large number of late Mk1s/early Mk2s coming out of South Africa with govt property stamps on them, perhaps we can pencil in PF 100000 as the first Mk2, and PF 100000 to - say - PF 120000 as "South Africa"......?

PF 100000 PF 120000 South Africa?
PF 118000 PF 217999 N/K 100,000 Start of Mk II Production.
PF 218000 PF 219799 N/K 1800
PF 219799 PF 275947 N/K 56,148
PF 225948 PF 250947 N/K 25,000

Circa 1951/52

PF 250948 PF 301547 British Army 50,600
PF 301548 PF 304047 Sudanese Order 2499
PF 304048 PF 309347 N/K 5300
PF 309348 PF 359347 Irish Republic 49,999?
PF 359348 PF 359747 N/K 400
PF 359748 PF 359817 Zambia 469
PF 359818 PF 359852 Singapore 34
PF 359953 PF 360052 Kingston 99
PF 360053 PF 360202 Trinidad 149
PF 360203 PF 360238 St Vincent 35
PF 360239 PF 360258 St Kitts 19
PF 360259 PF 360459 War Office? 200
(21 missing numbers)
PF 360480 PF 361159 Uganda 679
PF 361160 PF 361259 Parker Hale 99
PF 361028 10/53
PF 361280 PF 401086 Burma 39,806
PF 401087 PF 401495 No 4 (T) Rifles ? 408
PF 401496 PF 404156 N/K 2661
PF 401157 PF 404206 Parker Hale 3049
PF 404207 PF 405392 N/K 1186
PF 405393 PF 405412 St Vincent 19

Circa 1954

PF 405413 PF 405512 N/K 100
PF 405513 PF 405712 Admiralty 100
PF 405713 PF 405812 N/K 100
PF 405813 PF 405848 G E Fulton (Bisley) 35
PF 405849 PF 407448 N/K 1600
PF 406534 10/49
PF 407449 PF 407648 Trinidad 199
PF 407649 PF 407728 Zanzibar 79
PF 407729 PF 411228 N/K 3500
PF 411229 PF 411264 G E Fulton (Bisley) 35
PF 411265 PF 411481 Kenya 216
PF 411482 PF 411471 ? Hong Kong 11
(Confusion of batch No’s!)
PF 411472 PF 412789 N/K 1318

1951 Special Order

PP1 PP43 Parker Hale
PP44 PP47 To an unknown UK source

Did I just find something interesting?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...php?p=61726606

In relation to Lee Enfield No.4s 'Irish Contract'. I've seen this mentioned in other, often American forums and invariably they quote some guy called Stratton who said
"...The rifle was manufactured for the Irish Republic, but because of political problems (duh) the rifle was never delivered and was kept in storage.
Well (duh) I don't recall any political problems in 1953 that would have stopped the delivery of those rifles. I can't help but think it's one of those myths that grew legs.

When I was in the FCA and trained on the .303. I saw brand new .303s both wrapped and unwrapped in the armory in Griffith barracks. I also believe after the FCA transitioned to the FN, that many older .303s were dumped in the Irish Sea but the 'new' and cleaner rifles sold onto the market. There was a so-called controversy at the time from certain newspapers who worried they would fall into the hand of terrorists. This at a time when all terrorists had an AK-47.
So does anyone here know the truth? Was there an Irish contract that was never delivered or were they in fact war surplus British stocks as suggested by some. Or are they in fact actually surplus ex Irish army never issued and sold on to America?
AFAIK what are referred to as "Irish Contract" are the ones sold by the Irish Government after the FCA were given the FN

Do a search on
http://www.vcrai.com/phpBB/phpBB3/index.php
(The Irish Classic rifle forum) and you will get more info
clip_image001.gif


NB updated link !

Pedroibar, I can safely that I never saw a .303 dated earlier than the 1950s when I was in the FCA. Some were actually 'new' out of the wrapping and dated 1953. They were all No.4 rifles. The ones you refer to must be No.IIIs and were probably issued to the army in the 1940s until replaced by the No.4s probably in the 50s.

I never saw any rifles dated earlier than the 1950s, which is not to say they didn't exist.

Thanks bunny, I think so too. I just wonder where this idea of an impounded batch came from.

In reality the "Irish contract" rifles were nothing more than rifles that had the FF Oglich na Eireinn stamp on them. They ran a specific serial number.[Cant remember what it is]
They were apparently only partially delivered due to either money problems in the Govt here or the FN SLR was starting to debut and Army decided to upgrade totally to the FN.
ASFIK they were sold to the US in the late 1980s early 1990s,or when the FN went to the FCA.They were sold to Century Arms in Canada for the US and Canada markets. Those that I have seen are pristine never fired rifles, and some smart buyers still have them in their "sleeping bags”. Be lucky now if you could get one for around $400 plus. A lot of US collectors have twigged the FF stamp value.

Irish Contract "Blondes" dated 1950 - 1955 with the PF serial number where sold to Century Arms in the U.S. for £10 punts a rifle I believe. These where the ones stored in Ireland. There was I believe a consignment of Irish Contract Rifles held in the UK that where manufactured in the Fazerkly plant but the consignment never left the UK

As to why they didn't get delivered, well if you look at the fact bolt action rifles for general military issue where being phased out in other European countries and the FN was being looked at in most as the replacement plus the cartridge of choice was moving to the NATO 7.62 x 51 round not the .303.

To re-barrel all those rifles, estimated 50,000 in the contracted, to the new smaller 7.62, not economical. I think this is why they were not delivered personally. And In reality the "Irish contract" rifles were nothing more than rifles that had the FF Oglich na Eireinn stamp on them. They ran a specific serial number. [Can’t remember what it is] "
 
bearhunter said:
If the rifle came with the still in wrap, No 9 bayonet and scabbard that they were originally sold with, the sling, cleaning kit and plastic oil bottle, the set up, in the wrap was worth around $1350.

Now, without the accessories and the wrap, you have a $650 rifle.

One was at the Lumby Gun Show for two days and finally sold for $550. It was identical to yours. The fellow sold off the accessories separately and kept crying about how much money he had thrown into his fire pit, which was the wrapping paper and tags.

Don't get me wrong, your rifle, your money.

Lots of guys just won't believe the rifles in the wrap are more desirable to some collectors than shooters.

Certainly an expensive way to find out.

By the way, as mentioned DON'T sweat the cosmo out of it. That will drive the value down another couple of hundred dollars. Wipe it with lightly soaked varsol rags. Even Sunlight liquid detergent in warm water, soaked into a rag will take off the cosmolene. It may take a bit longer but the original finish will be intact and a very light coat of Linseed Oil will bring it back to perfect luster
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I researched the consequences of unwrapping the rifle and was expecting a loss of $200.00 to $400.00, made the decision that it was an acceptable loss for me as I unwrapped it, not someone else, I would shoot it first, not someone else, and I have pictures of the whole process plus kept the tag and stickers from the wrap. Did this for myself not for future gain as I will be shooting it not hoping for profit. I see the prices people are quoting for what these guns are actually worth after being unwrapped and if someone has a UF serial range gun unwrapped matching numbers including, bolt, magazine, etc. complete with bayonet, scabbard and is in excellent "low round count(how would you prove that to me?)" condition please PM me as I would gladly pay $550.00 for another one. Thanks to a couple of you for warning me about sweating the stock. After thinking about it makes sense to just wipe it down and not chance damaging it, stock finish is very nice as is!

Rodney
 
I would have made the same choice, I probably would have left it wrapped for awhile, but them i would really enjoyed unwrapping it and being the first shooter of the rifle.

All I have too say is enjoy the rifle!
 
I would have unwraped it the day I got it.....

Yes I have other enfields but I want to shoot the ones I own.

What I really need to do is wrap up chunks of wood and metal and sell them off as wraped rifles to guys that will never unwrap them...... :p
 
Like I said, it's your rifle and your choice.

Every time someone unwraps one and shoots it, that just makes the remaining wrapped rifles more valuable.

In Chilliwack, this spring there was one unwrapped rifle. It had a $1200 price on it and it didn't last 20 minutes.

There were a few others, that were unwrapped but were either unfired or very well cleaned after firing. They started out at $875. Most of them went home with the vendors that brought them.

I honestly don't care that you unwrapped the rifle.

Personally, I couldn't bring myself to do it.

I have a few dozen other 303 British chambered rifles of several different models. All are in VG+ or better condition and all shoot well.

There are thrills and there are thrills.

What those thrills are worth to you personally is your personal choice.

You asked the value of your piece and I gave you my opinion and what I see them sell for in similar condition at gun shows.

I didn't give you an emotional rant or comment. I gave you an honest assessment of the value of your rifle as it is right now.

You made the choice to unwrap it and will eventually shoot it. Live with it and be happy with your decision. There is absolutely nothing you can ever do to reverse the situation.

Just enjoy the experience you paid for.
 
Hi Bearhunter,
I wasn't me asking what it was worth, I am the one who purchased it wrapped and made the desicion shoot the rifle I am aware as I said that the value for resale is less once unwrapped. Didn't buy it for resale so thats not an issue for me.

Rodney
 
rodauto said:
View attachment 6087View attachment 6088View attachment 6089View attachment 6090

I agree that unwrapping will make it less valuable, but I also lost value on my truck when I drove it off the lot. I am a shooter/ collector not a collector /shooter. In the wrap really had no value for me as i enjoy the noise, smell of gun powder more than the smell of money.
To each his own and I hope there are people out there that will keep some of them in the wrap, I don't have enough money to buy something I can't use, just enough to use what I buy!!
The ammo is very expensive but I reload so not much more expensive than my .308 and likely less expensive than my 6 mm ppc.
I have yet to buy a rifle or pistol that has cost me less than the ammo I need to feed it over time, bought this rifle because of it's unique back ground and also to keep my other military rifles company!
Also took advice from another in this post and didn't sweat the stock, was so little como on it that it just wiped off anyway.
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Might have been better off with the used Enfield then, as a shooter first collector second. :) Beautiful rifle, and I understand your interest in unwrapping her, that's an experience that's nearly gone, pulling a brand new Lee Enfield out of the wrap.
 
Yah damitt, bought a used Enfield and a used Ross first to take my mind off the No 4 Mk 2 after finding out my buddy had one for sale, all it did was make me want the No 4 Mk 2 more, it is an addiction that I am willing to accept. Just hope my wife can accept it too!! Is there a support group available for us poor unfortunates that just can't stop collecting rifles with military or historical significance??
 
Very interesting discussion on a couple levels here. First off that must be a great feeling unwrapping that rifle and being first to shoot it. Next thing is I believe my rifle is one of the Irish rifles, its electro penciled No4Mk2(F) and 5/49PF103223 does anyone care to cast some light on where/what/when this rifle started its life? All matching numbers except the mag that it came with.
 
Went to the range this last week end with 3 different 303 British rifles. The No 4 mk2, No 4 mk 1, and Ross mk III. Had a blast with them (pun intended).
Shooting the 7.7 X 56R surplus ammo the group with the No 4 Mk 2 was about 5 1/2 inches, the Ross was about 6 1/2 inches with the same ammo. Not bad for surplus ammo, was using a 25 yard pistol target for the Enfield thinking the small black circle would be better for accuracy, unfortunately at 100 yards it was pretty much invisible!!! Tried a 3 inch orange circle on the target (pretty orange blob just doesn't do it for me, how can a circle become an irregular star shaped blob at 100 yards??)... next time will try with the proper target?
The rifle worked flawlessly once I remembered that with rimmed cartridges it is important to load them with each subsequent cartridge rim in front of the one loaded before. Trigger is definitely better than the one on the No 4 mk1 but not as good as the Ross trigger. I found that I couldn't get a good cheek weld with the sights so am going to come up with some type of cheek piece as I think this would make a big difference as well.
As I have read on a few posts the Enfield definitely doesn't like the boat tail bullets I shot 20 rounds of factory remington 180 grain core-lokt ammo, target looked like I fired buck shot at it! At least I have some fire formed brass to work with now though as the 7.7X56R is berdan primed so threw out about 60 brass, damn near cried doing that.
Bought some 174 grain flat base bullets for reloading so hope to try that out when I get back from vacation in a few weeks.
Can't comment on the No4 mk 1 as by the time I got to it had already shot about 60 rounds of 303 and being a wuss even the slip on recoid pad was no help, most of the shots went into the same group as the Ross but some were gravitating towards the No4 mk 2 target below, maybe due to the tears in my eyes from the first 60 rounds from the other rifles?


Rodney
 
rodauto said:
Went to the range this last week end with 3 different 303 British rifles. The No 4 mk2, No 4 mk 1, and Ross mk III. Had a blast with them (pun intended).
Shooting the 7.7 X 56R surplus ammo the group with the No 4 Mk 2 was about 5 1/2 inches, the Ross was about 6 1/2 inches with the same ammo. Not bad for surplus ammo, was using a 25 yard pistol target for the Enfield thinking the small black circle would be better for accuracy, unfortunately at 100 yards it was pretty much invisible!!! Tried a 3 inch orange circle on the target (pretty orange blob just doesn't do it for me, how can a circle become an irregular star shaped blob at 100 yards??)... next time will try with the proper target?
The rifle worked flawlessly once I remembered that with rimmed cartridges it is important to load them with each subsequent cartridge rim in front of the one loaded before. Trigger is definitely better than the one on the No 4 mk1 but not as good as the Ross trigger. I found that I couldn't get a good cheek weld with the sights so am going to come up with some type of cheek piece as I think this would make a big difference as well.
As I have read on a few posts the Enfield definitely doesn't like the boat tail bullets I shot 20 rounds of factory remington 180 grain core-lokt ammo, target looked like I fired buck shot at it! At least I have some fire formed brass to work with now though as the 7.7X56R is berdan primed so threw out about 60 brass, damn near cried doing that.
Bought some 174 grain flat base bullets for reloading so hope to try that out when I get back from vacation in a few weeks.
Can't comment on the No4 mk 1 as by the time I got to it had already shot about 60 rounds of 303 and being a wuss even the slip on recoid pad was no help, most of the shots went into the same group as the Ross but some were gravitating towards the No4 mk 2 target below, maybe due to the tears in my eyes from the first 60 rounds from the other rifles?


Rodney
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Rodney, I highly recommend reading "shoot to live" its available in PDF for free. I'm not being all "stuffed shirt" about it, I was and continue to struggle with tight groups. In my case its due to a developed flinch because I was holding the rifle improperly resulting in the bashed shoulder and a few fat lips!:eek:
Before you add a riser or adapt the rifle you may want to read this manual (shoot to live) it is a Canadian gunnery instructors manual on how to teach green recruits the principals of musketry with the no4 Lee Enfield rifle. Absolutely invaluable for anyone who wants to shoot this rifle effectively. I've been shooting rifles for a long time, more to the truth, I've been shooting rifles incorrectly for a long time.
When placed and held correctly, you will not require the slip on pad and you will not suffer a bashed shoulder (or fat lip;)). You'll be able to shoot your wallet dry at every session without bruising, honest.

Off to work on my flinch. Laugh2 (dime on the sight hood ear, dry firing)
 
Thanks plinker777
I downloaded the manual and will definitely check it out, should help me with most of my rifle shooting open sights, scoped etc. Have gone to scopes on most of my guns in the last few years as I can't see the front sight clearly anymore but can't bring myself to scope the milsurps!!!


Rodney
 
rodauto said:
Thanks plinker777
I downloaded the manual and will definitely check it out, should help me with most of my rifle shooting open sights, scoped etc. Have gone to scopes on most of my guns in the last few years as I can't see the front sight clearly anymore but can't bring myself to scope the milsurps!!!


Rodney
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I'm getting there myself, but it is amazing what blackening the sights will do for you. {its in the manual}
 
Awesome rifle, looks sweet. I would have done the same in unwrapping it and shooting it in the future, thats what she was meant to do!
IMHO I would pay $750-$1000 tops. Beautiful rifles, but for over $1000, it would be tough to pay that price.
 
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