Well, it just could be that the one recipe you used so far is only going to give you 2" groups. Especially if you are below the starting load listed. Either try some actual load development or get a box of factory and prove to yourself it is or is not the gun. Otherwise, you might just chase that 2" group with your scope til the cows come home!
2 inches high at 100 yards?!?!
- Thread starter greg11
- Start date
Well, it just could be that the one recipe you used so far is only going to give you 2" groups. Especially if you are below the starting load listed. Either try some actual load development or get a box of factory and prove to yourself it is or is not the gun. Otherwise, you might just chase that 2" group with your scope til the cows come home!
Get the box of factory, shoot a group and then have someone else do the same; this will cost you $10 to rule out an equipment problem or operator error.
As mentioned, your loads are well below listed minimums in most manuals; can you hear the powder moving around a lot if you shake one of your loaded rounds? You could be seeing inconsistency due to powder settling differently in the case.
Invest in a decent beam scale to ensure you are throwing the charge you think you're throwing, and weigh every charge while doing your load development. Consult your manuals for your min and max loads and load 3 at half grain increments all the way to max, and a couple of steps over. Just be very mindful of pressure signs as you work your way up. The right load is out there, you just need to find it!
Good luck!
As mentioned, your loads are well below listed minimums in most manuals; can you hear the powder moving around a lot if you shake one of your loaded rounds? You could be seeing inconsistency due to powder settling differently in the case.
Invest in a decent beam scale to ensure you are throwing the charge you think you're throwing, and weigh every charge while doing your load development. Consult your manuals for your min and max loads and load 3 at half grain increments all the way to max, and a couple of steps over. Just be very mindful of pressure signs as you work your way up. The right load is out there, you just need to find it!
Good luck!
I know some of you guys have suggested trying cheap factory amo but imo it may not shoot much better than 2" and the OP will still be scratching his head wondering what to try next, work up a load and get over with.
Also for what it's worth I have brought many of friends and relatives at my range shooting over the years and many had never fired guns before, with a gun that had a proven load nobody has shot 2" groups with a 1/2 moa gun .
If I could shoot 1/2 moa with a gun the worst I have seen someone else shoot would be an inch but not 2.
Op I think your gun is capable of a minimum 3/4 moa @ 100 and possibly better.
Also for what it's worth I have brought many of friends and relatives at my range shooting over the years and many had never fired guns before, with a gun that had a proven load nobody has shot 2" groups with a 1/2 moa gun .
If I could shoot 1/2 moa with a gun the worst I have seen someone else shoot would be an inch but not 2.
Op I think your gun is capable of a minimum 3/4 moa @ 100 and possibly better.
Couple of thoughts:
a) I would leave the scope where it is for now (ie: stop twisting the dials). When I'm doing load development I just want the first shot to hit the paper. After that, I'm only interested in where the other shots end up in relation to each other, not my POA.
b) You have to do some sort of proper load development (ie: predictable incremental powder increases shot into groups in decent conditions). The load you're shooting could just be an unproductive load for your particular setup. I have found with a bunch of different .308 loads that .5 of a grain can make a significant difference in group size and that the optimal load is just shy of max loads. This is even true if you don't think you can shoot groups. You're still part of the system. Therefore you will at least find the most accurate round for you and your equipment.
c) I believe you mentioned that you're shooting off a bipod. You could ditch that and try shooting off of a rest or simple sand bags in order to eliminate any chance for hop. The nice thing about a front rest is that you can settle the rear of the gun into your rear bag (I literally pound mine down) and then adjust the front for elevation. This should be pretty repeatable from shot to shot. After that consistency is the key. All your body mechanics should be pretty much the same from shot to shot (distance of eye from scope, pressure of pulling stock into body, body position at bench, breathing, etc.)
Don't beat yourself up. We've all been there and, try as we might, end up visiting every once and a while.
But you have to start eliminating variables. Changing loads and adjustments from shot to shot will drive you batty.
a) I would leave the scope where it is for now (ie: stop twisting the dials). When I'm doing load development I just want the first shot to hit the paper. After that, I'm only interested in where the other shots end up in relation to each other, not my POA.
b) You have to do some sort of proper load development (ie: predictable incremental powder increases shot into groups in decent conditions). The load you're shooting could just be an unproductive load for your particular setup. I have found with a bunch of different .308 loads that .5 of a grain can make a significant difference in group size and that the optimal load is just shy of max loads. This is even true if you don't think you can shoot groups. You're still part of the system. Therefore you will at least find the most accurate round for you and your equipment.
c) I believe you mentioned that you're shooting off a bipod. You could ditch that and try shooting off of a rest or simple sand bags in order to eliminate any chance for hop. The nice thing about a front rest is that you can settle the rear of the gun into your rear bag (I literally pound mine down) and then adjust the front for elevation. This should be pretty repeatable from shot to shot. After that consistency is the key. All your body mechanics should be pretty much the same from shot to shot (distance of eye from scope, pressure of pulling stock into body, body position at bench, breathing, etc.)
Don't beat yourself up. We've all been there and, try as we might, end up visiting every once and a while.
But you have to start eliminating variables. Changing loads and adjustments from shot to shot will drive you batty.
Just make sure you are taking the same shot every time. Same , rest position, same breathing hold, eye relief etc. for each shot. Maybe you have developed a flinch. Also watch the impact of the bullet hit your target, follow up is everything. Get a friend to try the rifle as well, this will determine shooter error.
eaglesnester
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Your problems can be caused by many different things happening when you squeeze the trigger.
1. loose scope mountings, check em even if you do not think they are loose. Properly torque the screws with a Fat Wrench. I do believe that the rings need to be torqued to around 18-20 inch lbs. Can't remember what the bases are torqued to. Look it up on the web.
2. cheek weld, do you use the same cheek weld shot after shot and as has been stated before use the same eye relief.
3.flinch
4. breath hold, take a couple of deep breaths, focus, let out half your air, hold, focus and squeeze the trigger.
5. barrel harmonics, very important to get this under control right away, this is the first thing to get under control. you can control much of the harmonics that can send your shot into a flyer with good solid sandbags. when the charge goes off and the bullet starts down the barrel the weapon vibrates. this vibration can be magnified by a tripod, or many of the current rifle vise that are for sale. sandbags will help to tame the harmonics of your rifle like nothing else. Order and try a Bulls Bag. about 75 bucks or so. Go to their website and look at them. Just Google www.bullsbag.com
6. your rifle does not like the powder and bullet combo you are using. Find a load that your gun likes.
7. Try the OCW method. OCW= optimum charge weight. Look it up on Google and try it I guarantee you will find your personal load that will make your day and you will not burn up a barrel looking for your bullet, powder, and load combo. hope this helps. If after doing all of the above and your rifle will still not print at least 1.5 inches a 100 yards, get a new gun. Your rifle will probably shoot .5 inches or better at 100 meters. Chasing accuracy can be a frustrating thing if you do not approach the problem methodically. One last thing, don't be a recital knob twister. shoot at least 3, 5, rounds is better and see how the rifle prints before you touch those knobs. Then hold your scope on the bull and CAREFULLY WITHOUT MOVING OFF THE BULL move your recitals to the center of the group you just shot. put up a new target and fire another group and see how that prints. You may have a scope that when you adjust your recitals they do not move to your adjustment point. Fire a shot they will usually move to your adjustment point then. above all keep your barrel cool. allow some time between shots, remember when you shoot game you are always doing a cold bore shot.
Cheers&Tighter Groups: Eaglesnester
1. loose scope mountings, check em even if you do not think they are loose. Properly torque the screws with a Fat Wrench. I do believe that the rings need to be torqued to around 18-20 inch lbs. Can't remember what the bases are torqued to. Look it up on the web.
2. cheek weld, do you use the same cheek weld shot after shot and as has been stated before use the same eye relief.
3.flinch
4. breath hold, take a couple of deep breaths, focus, let out half your air, hold, focus and squeeze the trigger.
5. barrel harmonics, very important to get this under control right away, this is the first thing to get under control. you can control much of the harmonics that can send your shot into a flyer with good solid sandbags. when the charge goes off and the bullet starts down the barrel the weapon vibrates. this vibration can be magnified by a tripod, or many of the current rifle vise that are for sale. sandbags will help to tame the harmonics of your rifle like nothing else. Order and try a Bulls Bag. about 75 bucks or so. Go to their website and look at them. Just Google www.bullsbag.com
6. your rifle does not like the powder and bullet combo you are using. Find a load that your gun likes.
7. Try the OCW method. OCW= optimum charge weight. Look it up on Google and try it I guarantee you will find your personal load that will make your day and you will not burn up a barrel looking for your bullet, powder, and load combo. hope this helps. If after doing all of the above and your rifle will still not print at least 1.5 inches a 100 yards, get a new gun. Your rifle will probably shoot .5 inches or better at 100 meters. Chasing accuracy can be a frustrating thing if you do not approach the problem methodically. One last thing, don't be a recital knob twister. shoot at least 3, 5, rounds is better and see how the rifle prints before you touch those knobs. Then hold your scope on the bull and CAREFULLY WITHOUT MOVING OFF THE BULL move your recitals to the center of the group you just shot. put up a new target and fire another group and see how that prints. You may have a scope that when you adjust your recitals they do not move to your adjustment point. Fire a shot they will usually move to your adjustment point then. above all keep your barrel cool. allow some time between shots, remember when you shoot game you are always doing a cold bore shot.
Cheers&Tighter Groups: Eaglesnester
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Like others have said there are so many factors to this equation.
1) what kind of brass? IE all the same brand???
2) what type of primer?
3) full length resize or neck size?
4) how far is your bullet seated?
5) do you weigh each charge in each cartridge you load?
Before you touch the gun.... Do like others have said and get it shooting well with factory ammo. Then be consistent in your reloading if your going for accuracy.
my best results have come from doing the following:
1) make sure all my brass is the same brand for the load i'm developing
2) always use the same primer in that load
3) i choose to full length resize personally because i just hunt with my guns. your gun will be more accurate if you neck size brass that was shot out of the gun initially. IE the factory brass you shoot setting it up and initial sight in.
4) Go through the process of smoking a bullet and then sizing the cartridge to your rifle. Use a caliper and be consistent.
5) I weigh each charge I throw and never vary from the load that I am trying to make EVER!!!
6) Powder selection is also key. Do some reading on what powder works best with the caliber that your using. I personally have had the best accuracy with 760 winchester in the .308 caliber I shoot 180gr bullets.
A combination of these items have given great results to me in a multitude of different calibers over the years. Bottom line if your going for sub MOA accuracy then do your self a favor and look at all the little details in reloading. Most importantly though is to have fun!!!! Good luck.
1) what kind of brass? IE all the same brand???
2) what type of primer?
3) full length resize or neck size?
4) how far is your bullet seated?
5) do you weigh each charge in each cartridge you load?
Before you touch the gun.... Do like others have said and get it shooting well with factory ammo. Then be consistent in your reloading if your going for accuracy.
my best results have come from doing the following:
1) make sure all my brass is the same brand for the load i'm developing
2) always use the same primer in that load
3) i choose to full length resize personally because i just hunt with my guns. your gun will be more accurate if you neck size brass that was shot out of the gun initially. IE the factory brass you shoot setting it up and initial sight in.
4) Go through the process of smoking a bullet and then sizing the cartridge to your rifle. Use a caliper and be consistent.
5) I weigh each charge I throw and never vary from the load that I am trying to make EVER!!!
6) Powder selection is also key. Do some reading on what powder works best with the caliber that your using. I personally have had the best accuracy with 760 winchester in the .308 caliber I shoot 180gr bullets.
A combination of these items have given great results to me in a multitude of different calibers over the years. Bottom line if your going for sub MOA accuracy then do your self a favor and look at all the little details in reloading. Most importantly though is to have fun!!!! Good luck.
- Location
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I have a Sightron SIII 8-32x56mm. Shouldn't I be putting them all in one hole?
JOKE.
Just some more info base on your guys' inputs thus far...
I'm shooting a Savage PC .308 (figured you'd need to know my gun too...). Action screws are tight. I checked parallax while I was shooting, and it seemed to be right on. I have a Vortex bubble level on my optic, and was keeping the bubble in the same spot consistently from shot to shot.
I just checked my rings and it seems they were a little loose (backed off from where I had torqued them). I have Burris Sig Zee rings, and in the 30mm variety of these rings, there are four screws holding the top piece onto the bottom piece, I think I had them unevenly torqued, letting them back off through recoil...
I'll have to shoot again tomorrow and start from scratch.
Also, on my rings it seems that the top pieces are as tight to the bottom pieces as they can go. Shouldn't there be a bit of a gap there? I'm thinking the rings aren't biting onto the scope as tightly as they should be, and that instead the top ring-piece is bringing up against the bottom ring-piece (giving the illusion of "bite" when I am torquing my ring screws).
The scope seems quite solid, but maybe I should think about getting a 0.010" insert kit. As they would be fatter, maybe I'd be able to make the rings bite the scope body harder (instead of the top ring-piece butting up against the bottom ring-piece). Again, I don't even know if this is an issue. Perhaps there is actually enough bite. I'll have to wait and see tomorrow... The wait is killing me because I want to go shoot some groups NOW!
Tonight I made 20 180gr SMK's over 38.2 grains of H4895 and 40 168gr Hornady HPBT AMAX's over 40.2 grains of the same powder (I ran out of 175 grain SMK's, only have 200 180 SMK's left now ARGHHHHHHH!!!! Close enough to replicate today's conditions? Maybe).
I am!!!!!!
But I'm reloading for $0.70 a shot. I just hate "teaching myself" when I know 10 minutes with an experienced shooter could have me a lot of needless trigger yanking. But I suppose learning this way is the best way to learn, in some respects....
First of all, don't over torque your ring screws. If you don't have an inch-pound torque wrench, hold your screw driver between your thumb and first two fingers, from the end of the screw driver handle so its hanging below your hand. Holding the screw driver in this fashion will prevent you from over torquing the screws which only require 15-20 in-lbs. Some thread dope like blue Lock-tite will take care of the screws backing out.
Take care to use a repeatable cheek weld and have your scope properly set for close range parallax. Be sure you aren't canting your rifle.
No one else has commented on this, but the tops and bottoms of your rings should not be in contact. If they are, it's not possible to get a proper grip on the scope (I cringed when you used the term "bite"
) This is one time when scope-ring lapping would not be a good idea...the two halves are already crunched together...lapping will only make it worse.
) This is one time when scope-ring lapping would not be a good idea...the two halves are already crunched together...lapping will only make it worse.
If your fundamentals are not really good a bipod will magnify them.
Most of the time throwing rounds on the high side of where you know your gun shoots.
If it is a consistent 2" high group it's the ammo.
If you are under the low powder charge of the reload manual it probably won't have the velocity needed to stabilize the bullet at your barrel's twist rate.
My .243 hates 55-60 gr. and I can hardly keep them in 5" @ 100 yds. So I don't use them.
Most of the time throwing rounds on the high side of where you know your gun shoots.
If it is a consistent 2" high group it's the ammo.
If you are under the low powder charge of the reload manual it probably won't have the velocity needed to stabilize the bullet at your barrel's twist rate.
My .243 hates 55-60 gr. and I can hardly keep them in 5" @ 100 yds. So I don't use them.
If your ring tops are touching the ring bottoms, you have either crushed your scope and the reticle is now just floating around loose OR your rings were machined out of spec and are too large.
Many people way over torque their scope rings. With a torque screw driver (Wheeler FAT wrench) you would probably be surprised at how light it actually feels when using the torque that is called for by manufacturers.
Many people way over torque their scope rings. With a torque screw driver (Wheeler FAT wrench) you would probably be surprised at how light it actually feels when using the torque that is called for by manufacturers.
If you have a friend that has a .308 cal rifle, get him to bring it down and try using your loads in his rilfe and see how that compares to your rifle and how that also compares to what your friend shoots with his own ammo. this will help rule out some issues
Ring lapping isn't an issue here. He's running Burris Sig-Z rings. They have bushings which ride inside the rings and contacts the scope. No lapping is ever needed on those rings.
Greg11, I'm running 175 SMK's over Varget in a Savage .308 and am a member of the SJRGC as well. If you see a black 97 Dodge Ram Sport, single cab, short box, 4x4 with dual exhaust, that's me, lol. I'd be happy to take a few shots out of your rifle for you, lol. You could always try mine as well if you'd like. At least that would rule out one variable, unless both of us suck, lol.
Don't even bother with the factory ammo unless you can get good ammo, it will only cause more questions. When I first bought my .308 I had 3 boxes of Win 180gr Super-X at the range in Makinsons. We set up at 300 yards to sight it in and I couldn't do anything with it. I was getting about an 18" pattern (can't call it a group lol) at 300 yards. I let another shooter with considerable skill fire off the last box, he couldn't do any better. I figured for sure my barrel or scope was pooched. The other shooter said it could possibly be the ammo, but I would never have believed factory ammo would be THAT bad. I eventually got my hands on some Norma Match 168 gr ammo........clover leafs at 100 yards, and if I did my part it had no trouble nailing V Bulls at 600 yards. I would never have believed the difference if I hadn't seen it myself. Yes, I know some factory ammo isn't that great, but 18" group at 300?...nuts.....
Greg11, I'm running 175 SMK's over Varget in a Savage .308 and am a member of the SJRGC as well. If you see a black 97 Dodge Ram Sport, single cab, short box, 4x4 with dual exhaust, that's me, lol. I'd be happy to take a few shots out of your rifle for you, lol. You could always try mine as well if you'd like. At least that would rule out one variable, unless both of us suck, lol.
Don't even bother with the factory ammo unless you can get good ammo, it will only cause more questions. When I first bought my .308 I had 3 boxes of Win 180gr Super-X at the range in Makinsons. We set up at 300 yards to sight it in and I couldn't do anything with it. I was getting about an 18" pattern (can't call it a group lol) at 300 yards. I let another shooter with considerable skill fire off the last box, he couldn't do any better. I figured for sure my barrel or scope was pooched. The other shooter said it could possibly be the ammo, but I would never have believed factory ammo would be THAT bad. I eventually got my hands on some Norma Match 168 gr ammo........clover leafs at 100 yards, and if I did my part it had no trouble nailing V Bulls at 600 yards. I would never have believed the difference if I hadn't seen it myself. Yes, I know some factory ammo isn't that great, but 18" group at 300?...nuts.....
Winchester Ammo is the worst ammo money can buy..... I have never ever seen a consistent box in more than 20 years of shooting.
Okay, I shot some groups today, all of them were terrible.
Honestly, I shoot better groups than this at 100 yards using iron sights on my AR-15.
I don't know how to interpret these, as they seem pretty random.
It was pretty windy today, so I'll chalk up the windage variations to bad doping on my part, but shouldn't the vertical spreads be ALOT closer than these?
I know you can't quite see the primers, but there is a little cratering happening at 41.5 (Hodgdon lists 42.5 as the max, maybe I need to keep going higher?).
I was aiming at the middle left target, and didn't touch my turrets, as suggested! Middle squares measure 1.25" across.
180gr SMK over 40 grains H4895:
180gr SMK over 40.5 grains H4895:
180gr SMK over 41 grains H4895:
180gr SMK over 41.5 grains H4895:
Can anyone interpret these for me?
Everything is tight on my gun. The scope isn't broken. I must be just toally screwing something up?!?!
It does seem as if the last group is the best, excluding the flier (which I didn't call, LOL) it's 1.12"-.308"= 0.812".
The first two shots almost went in the same hole, which had me excited, then the group when for crap.
I'm also at 2.81 COAL, think I should seat the bullets a little closer to the lands? I have a TON of room in my magazine to play with.
I'm THINKING of sticking with that last load, but moving my bullet a little closer to the lands and seeing what happens....
Honestly, I shoot better groups than this at 100 yards using iron sights on my AR-15.
I don't know how to interpret these, as they seem pretty random.
It was pretty windy today, so I'll chalk up the windage variations to bad doping on my part, but shouldn't the vertical spreads be ALOT closer than these?
I know you can't quite see the primers, but there is a little cratering happening at 41.5 (Hodgdon lists 42.5 as the max, maybe I need to keep going higher?).
I was aiming at the middle left target, and didn't touch my turrets, as suggested! Middle squares measure 1.25" across.
180gr SMK over 40 grains H4895:
180gr SMK over 40.5 grains H4895:
180gr SMK over 41 grains H4895:
180gr SMK over 41.5 grains H4895:
Can anyone interpret these for me?
Everything is tight on my gun. The scope isn't broken. I must be just toally screwing something up?!?!
It does seem as if the last group is the best, excluding the flier (which I didn't call, LOL) it's 1.12"-.308"= 0.812".
The first two shots almost went in the same hole, which had me excited, then the group when for crap.
I'm also at 2.81 COAL, think I should seat the bullets a little closer to the lands? I have a TON of room in my magazine to play with.
I'm THINKING of sticking with that last load, but moving my bullet a little closer to the lands and seeing what happens....
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Ive had that happen, and it did turn out to be my rings. I since have changed out my Bushnell 3200 fixed 9x mildot for a 10-40x - 50 tasco....wish I had the coin for Leupold but thats how she goes. It was a handme down from my Cousin and it worked great on his setup. I have Rem 700 AAC-SD in .308, all setup proper, and I remembered to make sure the rings are good and tight on the base this time... lol
What a costly day, probably a 40 round mistake.
