2-PIECE DIES DIE SET vs 3-PIECE DIES DIE SET.
- Thread starter Buster95
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Unless you need to put a crimp on the finished round to prevent the projectile from backing further into the case under recoil (like say, for use in a semi) I'd say "Non" offhand, but I'm sure someone will be along shortly to back me up or correct me.
Most (all?) two die sets will have a Full Length Sizing Die and a Bullet Seating Die. To answer your question, it would also depend on what the 3rd die in your set is. Is it a crimping die? Or is it (like I found in a set of Redding dies) a neck sizing die? In the case of the Redding Dies, I had a Full Length Die, a Bullet Seating Die and a Neck Sizing Die. That was nice die set for reloading .308 for a bolt action rifle. If the 3rd die is a crimping die, then it would be useful if you are loading for a semi-automatic.
Do yourself a big favor and pick up a neck sizing die to add to your set. You'll thank me later.
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- Fort St John BC
Do yourself a big favor and pick up a neck sizing die to add to your set. You'll thank me later.
Trinimon is right a neck sizing die is best as long as it's not a semi auto. Neck sizing makes your brass last longer and helps accuracy in any single shot or bolt. Alot of semi autos won't cycle reliably unless full length sized.
Lets get some facts straight.
Firstly, cartridges in magazines while the rifle is fired will most likely never move from recoil, but if they do, they out, not in toward the powder.
The widely held belief that you get a lot more loadings out of brass, if you only size the neck, is not only greatly exaggerated, it is not even true in most cases.
Only in rifles with excess head space could this be true, that you extend case life by only neck sizing, but with such rifles experienced loaders set the die so they don't push the shoulder back excessively, the same as one might do with a neck sizing die.
It is rare to find any newer rifle with excess head space. Most of my rifles have so little head space that I have to full length size with every loading and I always get long life from my cases.
If you feel you have to crimp, the crimping portion of the seating die does an excellent job, as it has for a hundred years, and saves the trouble of an extra trip through the dies.
I doubt if anything related to reloading has, in recent years, been so over hyped as has the cheaply built Lee "Factory" crimping die!
Now, getting back to this theory of better accuracy with neck sizing only, I would like to see somebody prove it. The old time world class target shooters discovered long ago that it was better if the chamber didn't hold the case tightly, and only the bolt face on the base of the case holding the bullet tight against the rifling, was what they wanted.
In short, to reload for a rifle cartridge shooting jacketed bullets, a good two piece die set does just fine. If you are going to load cast bullets you will require a third die, a neck expander.
Firstly, cartridges in magazines while the rifle is fired will most likely never move from recoil, but if they do, they out, not in toward the powder.
The widely held belief that you get a lot more loadings out of brass, if you only size the neck, is not only greatly exaggerated, it is not even true in most cases.
Only in rifles with excess head space could this be true, that you extend case life by only neck sizing, but with such rifles experienced loaders set the die so they don't push the shoulder back excessively, the same as one might do with a neck sizing die.
It is rare to find any newer rifle with excess head space. Most of my rifles have so little head space that I have to full length size with every loading and I always get long life from my cases.
If you feel you have to crimp, the crimping portion of the seating die does an excellent job, as it has for a hundred years, and saves the trouble of an extra trip through the dies.
I doubt if anything related to reloading has, in recent years, been so over hyped as has the cheaply built Lee "Factory" crimping die!
Now, getting back to this theory of better accuracy with neck sizing only, I would like to see somebody prove it. The old time world class target shooters discovered long ago that it was better if the chamber didn't hold the case tightly, and only the bolt face on the base of the case holding the bullet tight against the rifling, was what they wanted.
In short, to reload for a rifle cartridge shooting jacketed bullets, a good two piece die set does just fine. If you are going to load cast bullets you will require a third die, a neck expander.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Do I need a spoon or fork to eat a meal?
DEPENDS......
So until you specify what you are loading, what rifle you are loading for, and what type of performance you are after, the answer is far from complete.
Having used pretty much every die system for various applications, I do not say this is better then that. I say, find what is best for the end use application.
Define the job... then work back to the tool.
Jerry
PS, the needs and desires for precision shooting have certainly changed what is the "norm" nowadays. The stuff many do as SOP today would boggle the minds of shooters a decade or two ago.... mostly because the tools simply weren't available. But then the performance we reach today just to be competitive, would have cleaned up most everything a few decades back.
DEPENDS......
So until you specify what you are loading, what rifle you are loading for, and what type of performance you are after, the answer is far from complete.
Having used pretty much every die system for various applications, I do not say this is better then that. I say, find what is best for the end use application.
Define the job... then work back to the tool.
Jerry
PS, the needs and desires for precision shooting have certainly changed what is the "norm" nowadays. The stuff many do as SOP today would boggle the minds of shooters a decade or two ago.... mostly because the tools simply weren't available. But then the performance we reach today just to be competitive, would have cleaned up most everything a few decades back.
The 3rd (crimping die) in most sets is included in leaver rounds such as 45-70 for the most part.
Some sets have dies that do both with a 2nd set screw on your seating die. so the kit is 2 dies.
Even in my 45-70 i never use the crimping die or the crimp function I've always felt it messed with accuracy some one ones i have crimped its always been very very lightly crimped if anything.
I guess if you dropped your gun their is potential esp in a leaver tube that the bullet may move if not crimped but honestly if i dropped my rifle from a height enough to move a seated bullet id probably be reinspecting everything at home and not be shooting the rifle anyways.
If at that point the a round or some rounds had moved i'd just remove the bullet and re-seat it.
Some sets have dies that do both with a 2nd set screw on your seating die. so the kit is 2 dies.
Even in my 45-70 i never use the crimping die or the crimp function I've always felt it messed with accuracy some one ones i have crimped its always been very very lightly crimped if anything.
I guess if you dropped your gun their is potential esp in a leaver tube that the bullet may move if not crimped but honestly if i dropped my rifle from a height enough to move a seated bullet id probably be reinspecting everything at home and not be shooting the rifle anyways.
If at that point the a round or some rounds had moved i'd just remove the bullet and re-seat it.
Does a bullet seater die automatically crimp as well?
I am looking at the Lee Ultimate 4 die sets that include a full size, a neck sizer, a seating die and a crimping die. What are people's experiences with these dies? I am loading .308 for a couple of different rifles, including bolt action and semi auto.
Thanks!
I am looking at the Lee Ultimate 4 die sets that include a full size, a neck sizer, a seating die and a crimping die. What are people's experiences with these dies? I am loading .308 for a couple of different rifles, including bolt action and semi auto.
Thanks!
I've never heard of a bullet seating die that can't crimp other than the ultra premium match grade ones for precision long range shooting. Any regular run-of-the-mill bullet seater can crimp if adjusted properly. There should be instructions that come with it.
I stopped crimping most of my loads unless they're going in a tube mag. I did a test where I kept an uncrimped round in the magazine of a 308 Rem 700 and fired 20 shots with it in there. I measured the OAL before and after and it didn't change at all. For tube mag guns I do use a Lee factory crimp die because I have them and prefer the control (mostly because I have more experience with them). I also sometimes use them for cast bullets to apply an extra light crimp mostly just to remove the case neck flare. This could be done in a seating die but I find I get better control with a Lee FCD.
I also hand seat bullets sometimes in 45-70 when doing black powder loads (I sometimes don't resize the brass at all and haven't noticed a difference in accuracy) and the Lee FCD is quite useful to apply a light crimp. They're used in a single-shot rifle but not having the bullets move in the case during transport is helpful.
I prefer the Lee neck sizer simply because I don't have to deal with lube. I've heard reports of neck sizing improving accuracy but have never seen any evidence either online or from my own shooting. I do it to skip the mess of lubing and cleaning the cases. I also reload for a bunch of milsurp rifles with questionable to downright terrible headspace issues so they extend my brass life a lot in those rifles.
I stopped crimping most of my loads unless they're going in a tube mag. I did a test where I kept an uncrimped round in the magazine of a 308 Rem 700 and fired 20 shots with it in there. I measured the OAL before and after and it didn't change at all. For tube mag guns I do use a Lee factory crimp die because I have them and prefer the control (mostly because I have more experience with them). I also sometimes use them for cast bullets to apply an extra light crimp mostly just to remove the case neck flare. This could be done in a seating die but I find I get better control with a Lee FCD.
I also hand seat bullets sometimes in 45-70 when doing black powder loads (I sometimes don't resize the brass at all and haven't noticed a difference in accuracy) and the Lee FCD is quite useful to apply a light crimp. They're used in a single-shot rifle but not having the bullets move in the case during transport is helpful.
I prefer the Lee neck sizer simply because I don't have to deal with lube. I've heard reports of neck sizing improving accuracy but have never seen any evidence either online or from my own shooting. I do it to skip the mess of lubing and cleaning the cases. I also reload for a bunch of milsurp rifles with questionable to downright terrible headspace issues so they extend my brass life a lot in those rifles.
Agree 100%. Though I had to learn all of this through trial and error coupled with a lot of time on the press.
The bullet seating die from my lee 2 die set also crimps if you set it so the brass enters the die more... it can be adjusted for more or less crimp... however in my experience no crimp provides best accuracy... the press and dies I use are from 1985 if that means anything...
