200+ Yards with .22s

That’s some amazing shooting.
I have a 452 lux as well. Before I scoped it me and a buddy would take off hand shots at a 16” plate
Starting at 50yrds taking 5 steps back every hit.
Once we got past 150yards we were about 50% hit rate.
That was just us.

Now I have it scoped and 16” plate is easy.
I got a 8” plate at 140 yards off the back deck.
Was hard at first.

Got to trim some trees and put up a 12” at 200
Hope to get the 16” at 300. But don’t want to clear cut the place.
 
I've been attacked by a pack of rabid dogs for pointing out that the accuracy potential at distance for a 22 can be calculated... and has been validated by my own actual shooting as well others who are bold enough to admit it.

The math is quite basic... Take the accuracy in MOA at close range... like 1 MOA at 100 yards and multiply that times the distance, so 300 yards would be 3 MOA in a no wind condition.

But since there is a velocity spread we need to factor in the vertical affect, so if the load chronographs within 20 FPS ES then that's 2.06" of vertical

When we add the two we get a group 3 inches wide at 300 yards and 5.06 inches tall.

That's what it can do in ideal conditions if you have a 1 MOA rifle and ammo with an ES of 20 FPS.

Why people challenge this logic is something I will go to my grave not understanding.

Sure wind and mirage will play it's game, but that does not change the fact that a 22 is perfectly well capable of hitting pop cans at 300 yards in calm conditions with little or no mirage.

If any particular shooter cannot do this does not prove as evidence that the above math is flawed. It just proves that the rifle and ammo being used does not meet the parameters described.
 
The math is quite basic... Take the accuracy in MOA at close range... like 1 MOA at 100 yards and multiply that times the distance, so 300 yards would be 3 MOA in a no wind condition.

Oh, geez... where to start on this nonsense...
 
Back before I basically gave-up on offhand shooting/open sights...I used to shoot my Norinco/Mauser K98 at sitting clays @ 40 yards. I could hit them about 8/10 times and I remember thinking "wow...you still got it!" lol Like most hobbies, I think shooting requires you to keep evolving if it's to stay interesting. It's why I forgive myself for selling guns I said I never would, and why I actually DON'T over-think new challenges, etc. I just try them if they sound like fun. Steel targets at a distance SOUNDs fun, so I plan on adding some to my new spot in the coming months. I'll still target shoot @ 50/75...maybe stretch to 100 as well. I'll post targets if the results are good. :)

Once you get that 204 up and running, 200 yards is just a start on that cartridge.

Oh yeah...I know. :) I once had a nice sporter-weight 204 (Cooper) so I have a strong sense of the caliber's reach. Farms where I varmint hunt seldom offer (safe) shots much past 200 yards though. It's why I can be groundhog hunting...spot a dozen over the course of the day, but only pull the trigger a few times. Hills, buildings, farm equipment, neighbor's houses in the distance, etc. Chances taken=zero. I have gotten them out to 300, but only on the one farm I hunt that is the furthest away. (and large) Tall hay, wary groundhogs staying low~there are other challenges to adding allot of distance. At 300 yards, even with my big Sightron...low riding groundhogs don't look allot different from the wrong-colored barn cat, so identifying small targets at a distance is half the challenge. Again, no chances taken.
 
Oh you mean like when you're going to sell your 16" american to me? :) I kid I kid haha

lol...well..since you're from NB, you're near the top of the list. :) Still getting to know that gun, but I'm pretty happy with it at the moment. I'll keep you posted!
 
I've been attacked by a pack of rabid dogs for pointing out that the accuracy potential at distance for a 22 can be calculated... and has been validated by my own actual shooting as well others who are bold enough to admit it.

The math is quite basic... Take the accuracy in MOA at close range... like 1 MOA at 100 yards and multiply that times the distance, so 300 yards would be 3 MOA in a no wind condition.

But since there is a velocity spread we need to factor in the vertical affect, so if the load chronographs within 20 FPS ES then that's 2.06" of vertical

When we add the two we get a group 3 inches wide at 300 yards and 5.06 inches tall.

That's what it can do in ideal conditions if you have a 1 MOA rifle and ammo with an ES of 20 FPS.

Why people challenge this logic is something I will go to my grave not understanding.

Sure wind and mirage will play it's game, but that does not change the fact that a 22 is perfectly well capable of hitting pop cans at 300 yards in calm conditions with little or no mirage.

If any particular shooter cannot do this does not prove as evidence that the above math is flawed. It just proves that the rifle and ammo being used does not meet the parameters described.

First and foremost, please do not take this as a personal attack. This is about the ideas presented above, not about the person presenting them.

In the best of conditions -- which is to say in a perfect, ideal world, where calculations on a ballistic app are borne out in actual practice time and time again -- a .22LR round can almost do as described above. On paper (as in making calculations) it is possible to calculate what a round will do because it is a function of mathematical equations and calculations. This is the "theory" part of the question. In the physical world, that is to say in the world where everyone shoots, there is nothing at work to make a bullet travelling downrange more accurate. Instead, everything that Mother Nature has at her disposal is working to decrease the accuracy of the bullet. Everything. This is the "practical" part of the question.

Two factors are worth considering. First, the effects of gravity, while calculable, do not increase accuracy, but make it more difficult to maintain. Shooting a laser beam, which is more or less unaffected by gravity (as far as those of us reading these pages can tell), can predictably and reliably have a POI exactly where expected. A bullet, however, is another thing. At 200 yards, the effects of gravity cause a SV bullet to drop about 58 inches, an HV bullet about 42 inches. In theory it's easy to predict how much the drop will be at a given distance and adjust the sights for that drop. In the real world it is exceedingly difficult to put the theory into practice.

If a rifle and ammo can shoot 1 MOA at 100 yards, there is no reason to assume that the same level of accuracy will continue to 300 yards -- except of course with pen and paper, or with a ballistic calculator. Ammo with an ES of 20 fps is very optimistic. Few shooters shoot that kind of ammo. In the real world, even match ammo that costs $10 - $15 per box is good if its ES is 50 fps. More than likely it is even higher. That adds considerable vertical spread -- more than twice what is calculated above. Maintaining the same level of accuracy that is possible at 100 yards with a .22LR is simply not possible at 300 yards. Everything is working against accuracy, not for it. And that is even if the human factor, so often ignored in the equation, is not taken into account.

Second, the wind can be taken into account on paper or with a ballistic app, but it is not nearly so easy in the physical world to have practical results and theory in lock step. In an ideal world no one would worry about the wind, but that's not the environment where shooters shoot. A one mile per hour crosswind, which is hardly noticeable and barely causes leaves to move, will cause both SV and HV bullets to drift over 2 inches at 200 yards, over 4 at 300. Imagine the results if the wind gusts between 0 and 1 mph as the bullets travel downrange. Clearly the wind does not work to promote accuracy, especially with the .22LR bullet, as susceptible to wind drift as it is.

Only in the world of theory, in the world of ballistics apps or calculators, is it possible to shoot a .22LR with precision at ranges beyond 100 yards. In the real world, math doesn't shoot. It helps, but it doesn't produce results downrange. In practice there is nothing that influences the path of the bullet that works to help increase the accuracy of the bullet. On paper calculations or on ballistic apps, there is nothing that can't be accounted for, from gravity and wind, from temperature to air pressure, and from altitude to latitude. But in the real world, every factor militates against accuracy.

To be sure, this doesn't mean that it is not possible to hit a pop can at 300 yards. It can be done. The question remains how often. What percentage of shots miss completely? By how much? Hitting such a target most of the time is pretty good. But that's as far as it should be taken. It should not be misconstrued into something it clearly isn't.

When it comes to consistent and significant accuracy, the .22LR round is best at no more than 50 yards, certainly no more than 100. Yes, it can reach out further than that (remember the warning on a box of ammo "Dangerous within 1.5 miles") but it's best accuracy remains less than many long range shooters enthuse about. Shooters rarely shoot in ideal conditions and they certainly don't shoot with ideal ammo. If they did, then results more closely in line with what the ballistic apps show may be increasingly possible but still not duplicated.

For those who shoot long distance such as 200 and 300 yards, I say good for you. The .22LR can shoot that far and further still. While its accuracy diminishes increasingly with distance, it can nevertheless be an enjoyable way to shoot and get to know the rifle and ammo. Airgunners who shoot what is long distance for them with .22, .25, and .30 caliber PCP's know full well that it's an uphill struggle to maintain a level of accuracy that is noteworthy. There's no reason that .22LR shooters can't do the same.

In the end, there are more important questions to have when the time comes to go to the grave. Why a .22LR does not shoot in practice as it does in theory should not be one of those puzzles.
 
Lot of words, some people can accurately fire rounds at long range some cannot and just because you can’t don’t make excuses that some magic that defies physics makes .22 different than any other flying projectile.
 
First and foremost, please do not take this as a personal attack. This is about the ideas presented above, not about the person presenting them.

In the best of conditions -- which is to say in a perfect, ideal world, where calculations on a ballistic app are borne out in actual practice time and time again -- a .22LR round can almost do as described above. On paper (as in making calculations) it is possible to calculate what a round will do because it is a function of mathematical equations and calculations. This is the "theory" part of the question. In the physical world, that is to say in the world where everyone shoots, there is nothing at work to make a bullet travelling downrange more accurate. Instead, everything that Mother Nature has at her disposal is working to decrease the accuracy of the bullet. Everything. This is the "practical" part of the question.

Two factors are worth considering. First, the effects of gravity, while calculable, do not increase accuracy, but make it more difficult to maintain. Shooting a laser beam, which is more or less unaffected by gravity (as far as those of us reading these pages can tell), can predictably and reliably have a POI exactly where expected. A bullet, however, is another thing. At 200 yards, the effects of gravity cause a SV bullet to drop about 58 inches, an HV bullet about 42 inches. In theory it's easy to predict how much the drop will be at a given distance and adjust the sights for that drop. In the real world it is exceedingly difficult to put the theory into practice.


If a rifle and ammo can shoot 1 MOA at 100 yards, there is no reason to assume that the same level of accuracy will continue to 300 yards -- except of course with pen and paper, or with a ballistic calculator. Ammo with an ES of 20 fps is very optimistic. Few shooters shoot that kind of ammo. In the real world, even match ammo that costs $10 - $15 per box is good if its ES is 50 fps. More than likely it is even higher. That adds considerable vertical spread -- more than twice what is calculated above. Maintaining the same level of accuracy that is possible at 100 yards with a .22LR is simply not possible at 300 yards. Everything is working against accuracy, not for it. And that is even if the human factor, so often ignored in the equation, is not taken into account.

Second, the wind can be taken into account on paper or with a ballistic app, but it is not nearly so easy in the physical world to have practical results and theory in lock step. In an ideal world no one would worry about the wind, but that's not the environment where shooters shoot. A one mile per hour crosswind, which is hardly noticeable and barely causes leaves to move, will cause both SV and HV bullets to drift over 2 inches at 200 yards, over 4 at 300. Imagine the results if the wind gusts between 0 and 1 mph as the bullets travel downrange. Clearly the wind does not work to promote accuracy, especially with the .22LR bullet, as susceptible to wind drift as it is.

Only in the world of theory, in the world of ballistics apps or calculators, is it possible to shoot a .22LR with precision at ranges beyond 100 yards. In the real world, math doesn't shoot. It helps, but it doesn't produce results downrange. In practice there is nothing that influences the path of the bullet that works to help increase the accuracy of the bullet. On paper calculations or on ballistic apps, there is nothing that can't be accounted for, from gravity and wind, from temperature to air pressure, and from altitude to latitude. But in the real world, every factor militates against accuracy.

To be sure, this doesn't mean that it is not possible to hit a pop can at 300 yards. It can be done. The question remains how often. What percentage of shots miss completely? By how much? Hitting such a target most of the time is pretty good. But that's as far as it should be taken. It should not be misconstrued into something it clearly isn't.

When it comes to consistent and significant accuracy, the .22LR round is best at no more than 50 yards, certainly no more than 100. Yes, it can reach out further than that (remember the warning on a box of ammo "Dangerous within 1.5 miles") but it's best accuracy remains less than many long range shooters enthuse about. Shooters rarely shoot in ideal conditions and they certainly don't shoot with ideal ammo. If they did, then results more closely in line with what the ballistic apps show may be increasingly possible but still not duplicated.

For those who shoot long distance such as 200 and 300 yards, I say good for you. The .22LR can shoot that far and further still. While its accuracy diminishes increasingly with distance, it can nevertheless be an enjoyable way to shoot and get to know the rifle and ammo. Airgunners who shoot what is long distance for them with .22, .25, and .30 caliber PCP's know full well that it's an uphill struggle to maintain a level of accuracy that is noteworthy. There's no reason that .22LR shooters can't do the same.

In the end, there are more important questions to have when the time comes to go to the grave. Why a .22LR does not shoot in practice as it does in theory should not be one of those puzzles.

To be honest I find this attitude funny, in no way am I attacking you you clearly are a good shooter as we see on the 1/2 inch list with the really nice guns you shoot.
When we shoot say a 308 at 100 m with factory ammo we expect a 3/4 inch group, when we shoot that same gun and factory ammo in wind at 1km do we expect to hold 3/4 moa, probably not. As we move out and Mother Nature shows us how fickle she is no matter what you shoot it will get bigger. Why we expect a 22 to be different is beyond me, everything about it is amplified but why is this not acceptable accuracy.
Your game is clearly benchrest and I am sure you are really good at it, but if the accuracy I am chasing is a 10 inch group at 300 yards and it is repeatable every time I go to shoot than why is this beyond the limitations of the round. It shows exactly what the round and myself are capable of. If your acceptable accuracy at 50 is 1/3 inch than you are beyond the limitations of the round due to making more than one hole?
Mother Nature will never allow us to be perfect not to mention the human flaws that we introduce. It seems that whenever someone pushes the limits or goes against the grain with pushing the limits people are so fast to say it is bull, and they won’t do it or it shouldn’t be done and try their best to make it look false that it takes away from the accomplishment of the guy who can hold a foot at 300 with irons (great job by the way).
To me if everyone in the competition is shooting the same target than that is acceptable accuracy and the winner was the best that day. If it is not my bag than I keep my mouth shut. You yourself made a great point that I believe a month or so ago about the rule of 3, it makes perfect sense and typically holds true, but does this not become the acceptable accuracy?
 
Steve, I have mentioned getting this started again Gord, David, Frank & myself would enjoy a resurgence of this.

I like to see it get started up again, Ive been getting rusty the past while. And if we got a 300 metre shoot going with HMR17 or .223 cal. that would be a fun morning also.
 
To be honest I find this attitude funny, in no way am I attacking you you clearly are a good shooter as we see on the 1/2 inch list with the really nice guns you shoot.

I think you are confused... Grauhanen was speaking to Maple57, not you.
 
No I read the post and think of the shooter can hit the same area with 10 rounds, then do it again and again, and someone else can do it slightly better than it becomes the acceptable accuracy. If the round does the same thing again and again are we beyond it’s capabilities, I don’t think so. It is just an amplified group because Mother Nature and factory ammo variance. Like a 308 we find it’s limits with extremely stray billets or inconsistent impacts. As the video shows he is still very predictable
 
No I read the post and think of the shooter can hit the same area with 10 rounds, then do it again and again, and someone else can do it slightly better than it becomes the acceptable accuracy. If the round does the same thing again and again are we beyond it’s capabilities, I don’t think so. It is just an amplified group because Mother Nature and factory ammo variance. Like a 308 we find it’s limits with extremely stray billets or inconsistent impacts. As the video shows he is still very predictable

I couldn’t have said it better myself ! Like I was saying earlier, I know the groups are going to start spreading at over 200 yards with a 22lr but it’s still pretty consistent. From rewatching the video, I hit 7 of 8 shots and they were all somewhat centred on the steel plate.
 
Lot of words, some people can accurately fire rounds at long range some cannot and just because you can’t don’t make excuses that some magic that defies physics makes .22 different than any other flying projectile.

Please let readers know if you can find excuses.

To be honest I find this attitude funny...

Sadly, but perhaps even funnier is that the point I was trying to make seems lost. I responded to the following argument that was made above:

I've been attacked by a pack of rabid dogs for pointing out that the accuracy potential at distance for a 22 can be calculated... and has been validated by my own actual shooting as well others who are bold enough to admit it.

The math is quite basic... Take the accuracy in MOA at close range... like 1 MOA at 100 yards and multiply that times the distance, so 300 yards would be 3 MOA in a no wind condition.

Why people challenge this logic is something I will go to my grave not understanding.

If any particular shooter cannot do this does not prove as evidence that the above math is flawed. It just proves that the rifle and ammo being used does not meet the parameters described.

Only in the world of theory, in the world of ballistics apps or calculators, is it possible to shoot a .22LR with precision at ranges beyond 100 yards. In the real world, math doesn't shoot. It helps, but it doesn't produce results downrange. In practice there is nothing that influences the path of the bullet that works to help increase the accuracy of the bullet. On paper calculations or on ballistic apps, there is nothing that can't be accounted for, from gravity and wind, from temperature to air pressure, and from altitude to latitude. But in the real world, every factor militates against accuracy.

To repeat and to be more succinct, math doesn't shoot.
 
Ok, sorry my interpretation is that 22 is not repeatable at that distance, yes there are variables that the math does not work with. Your rule of three works perfect, if the group centre is centred around that is it not repeatable and acceptable accuracy in the given condition
 
There was an earlier thread where some members were questioning whether a .22lr can be accurate and consistent at 200 yards... And from what I recall there was kind of a friendly challenge to see what kind of groups people were achieving at these longer distances. So instead of burying my post in that thread, I'll start a new one here on the topic. Here's some photos and a video of me shooting my CZ 452 Lux at about 220 yards at an 8" steel plate. Enjoy!






Wow that is impressive! Without a scope!
 
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