2016 ORA outlook

What is your fixation on practices? No one except you has brought up anything about practices.

There is no short range part or long range part, its one course of fire with matches at every distance from 200 to 800. Dividing it is arbitrary. It doesn't take a full day to do half of the CoF. 1.5 days the way SR does it would be the best for most people and is all that is needed to shoot all 7 distances.
 
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maynard said:
You know for a fact that nothing has been done about getting range time in Meaford? I know for a fact that the process has started. There is also some talk about extending Burwash to 1000 yards/900m and the possibility of putting in butts there. Have you been to a meeting in the last 2 years to find out for yourself, or just going by hearsay?
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Does the ORA publish the minutes of their meetings? A big part of the problem is the lack of communication to the members who may not be in a position to attend meetings.
 
kombayotch said:
What is your fixation on practices? No one except you has brought up anything about practices.

There is no short range part or long range part, its one course of fire with matches at every distance from 200 to 800. Dividing it is arbitrary. It doesn't take a full day to do half of the CoF. 1.5 days the way SR does it would be the best for most people and is all that is needed to shoot all 7 distances.
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Some people will not attend matches for two reasons. One is lack of practice the other is cost. Practice allows shooters to get back to the basics, trigger control, breathing, sight picture, wind reading etc. This time also allows for testing and tuning of new loads, scopes and other equipment. Only a fool would enter a match with untried equipment. Then of course there are those that are just not competition ready and will spend a year or two learning everything they can before attending a match. The clinics are a great start, but some people need a little more time behind the trigger before jumping in.

All I am offering is a possible solution for the situation that we have in regards to PR matches and lack of Borden. I say "we" because it is all part of the ORA. If the CoF was broken into 2 parts, long range and short range and had to be split between 2 venues, how many times could the short range portion of the match be shot over 2 days?

Let's say for example over 2 days in Kingston you could fire all the short range portion of your CoF, 4 times. Then the following week/month you fire all the long range portion of your CoF at Connaught. I am sure the long range portion would not take 2 days to fire it 4 times, but book 2 full days anyway. Even though your Cof is spread out over 2 weekend, you still end up shooting the whole CoF 4 times in 4 days. If you could burn through your long range portion in a day, use the other day to shoot a complete CoF, or use it for long range practice or hit the highway before the traffic starts.

Think outside the box and think of ways to help yourself. Anything can be done if the shooters are will to do a little more traveling and commit to whole weekends.
 
<headdesk> :bangHead:

This is why nothing ever comes out of those meetings, and why people outside of TR don't bother going to them. 1) People can't keep their eye on the ball and stay on topic. 2) The "solutions" being proposed by people who don't understand the thing they're proposing solutions for don't make any sense and half the time is wasted explaining to them what actually happens in a match.

No one is complaining about practices wrt PR, so why even bring it up? Just another distraction. Instead of talking about practices, just look away and yell: "SQUIRREL!". It amounts to the same thing.

If you have Connaught, you can run the entire CoF in 2 days. The PR CoF is run over 1.5 days, at Connaught for NSCC. That you think this is some kind of big outside-of-the-box way of thinking is both funny and sad. Don't worry, people are working on getting Connaught, but it won't be through the ORA because they'd like it before 2018.
 
I am suggesting a way for PR to shoot 4 Cof over 4 days without driving all the way to Connaught twice to do it. If you are so narrow minded and don't want to hear it, please add me on your ignore list.
 
I am suggesting a way for PR to shoot 4 Cof over 4 days without driving all the way to Connaught twice to do it. If you are so narrow minded and don't want to hear it, please add me on your ignore list.

Seems I can't add you to my ignore list, too bad.
 
Let someone from outside of TR dictate the schedule and how it runs and show us how open minded you are.

The talk quota has been filled. Time to fill the action quota.
 
The idea of having PR and TR shooting along side on a practice date sound good in theory, but the reality would be far different. One discipline would have to accommodate another while leaving the other discipline shafted.

TR would not be prepared (or stand) to move 5-6 distances alongside PR COF. PR would finish one relay at a distance in about 30min and require to move. Not to mention the butt duties changes. By time PR is ready to move, TR will only be on it's 4th shot of their 15 shot string. Also why would TR want to practice on odd 200yard/m or 400y/m distances? TR gets shafted and it won't be long until you hear some TR pissing and moaning.

If you have PR on TR's time, it would be 1 and half hour before a given distance is moved, PR COF gets delayed while they wait for TR to finish practice. Not to mention TR crowd would probably only opt for max 2 distance changes. PR gets shafted.

The idea of getting connaught range by the ORA is not without consequence. ORA probably does not know NCRRA has made it clear that ORA member will be forced to JOIN (more $$$) NCRRA in order to make use of their beloved range. Not to mention the coordination now between two organizations with poor communication fighting for range time. SR is a exception as the head has very close ties to connaught range control and doe not go through normal ORA channels.

I don't know about anyone else, but I know most of us work and have slim schedules to recreate, touting the idea "yea just go to connaught" and driving 5-7 hours one way to shoot at 8am doe not make it easy.

I have been to the legion/ORA meeting and I will tell you this, issues heard are useless. The results are later ONLY voted by the counsel as ONLY their votes count toward action. Going to the AGM is a complete waste of time, granted it's the only chance feeble member may even get the opportunity to hmm their voice like mosquitos, swatted away and later dismissed.

Truth is, many of ORA members joined, had no range to shoot (was not properly communicated before the fact) and dealt with multiple cancellations (while all discipline got shafted, PR got it the worst). Too bad the only organization has access to military ranges is the ORA, how lucky for them people must pay to be at their mercy. How unfortunate.

I didn't join the ORA to be told "yea just go to connaught or just shoot another discipline that's different than mine". Rather than acknowledging that they have a serious issue on hand, providing real help or serious collaboration, they only offer a lackluster resolution (if it can even be called that).

Instead defendants of the ORA stand and have the decency to bicker/dispute/justify against real issues at hand. How sad....
 
Good Afternoon
Full disclosure I wholeheartedly support Kombayotch position on PR and the ORA and what transpired in 2015 and the forecast for 2016

That being said I think what your have suggested while well intended incorporates too many moving parts and resources . You are suggesting that we travel to Kingston to participate in 4 midrange events of PR CoF and then move to Connaught for 2 long range events or most likely 4 CoF broken up by 2 morning 2 afternoon .

Here is my disconnect. IF I am travelling to attend a match in Kingston which is 3hrs from the GTA why would I not be willing to travel an additional 2hrs (5hrs) to Connaught. IF I am committed to the match in Kingston and have booked time and resources then there is no additional cost (outside of traveling to Connaught) to participate in a full CoF.

With the Kingston/ Connaught suggestion I have to book 3 weekends and if I am unable to attend any of those 3 weekends, I DNF the entire CoF. I have to travel to two locations for each ½ match and cover the costs associated with each 1/2 match. Because PR shoots are two man teams we actually have to be able to book 6 weekends for myself and my partner. You can imagine booking 6 weekends in the summer time so I DNF again, as both of us cannot coordinate the same 3 weekends and I end up shooting with a different partner on any one of those 3 weekends.

You can see were this is going.

MY concern in what you’re telling us or suggesting is that the ORA doesn’t have the facilities at Connaught and the reason you are booking Kingston is because the ORA has scheduling rights at Kingston and are unable to book any events in Connaught through the ORA.

Thank you
Trevor
 
Trevor60 said:
MY concern in what you’re telling us or suggesting is that the ORA doesn’t have the facilities at Connaught and the reason you are booking Kingston is because the ORA has scheduling rights at Kingston and are unable to book any events in Connaught through the ORA.
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The challenge, quite simply, is that ORA has no relationship with the range staff at Connaught in order to actually make bookings, nor do they have any range officers approved to sign out the ranges. ORA members wanting to shoot practices at Connaught have always, and will continue to be required to also join the NCRRA in order to take advantage of the practice times made available to NCRRA (in particular Sundays for TR/F-Class, and Saturdays for SR/PR). This same rule also applies for PQRA members. Last year the ORA annual matches at Connaught were actually booked by the DCRA on the ORA's behalf and the range signed out by DCRA approved ROs.

There are several F-Class and TR matches run at Connaught by NCRRA (Victoria Day, Easterns, Long Range Weekend) but nothing in the way of SR/PR. The SR match side is addressed by the ORA SR matches that are run at Connaught (with NCRRA assistance), but there are so few PR shooters in the NCRRA that there hasn't been much thrust for the club to host PR matches. With that said, the SR/PR Activity Captain at NCRRA has been clear that he would be happy to assist the ORA PR section with booking/running the range should the ORA wish to run a PR match (or matches) at Connaught. All it would take would be some people to step up and take the time to help. I know a few who have already stepped forward, and they should be thanked for that.

Hopefully next year things will be back to normal and we can all go back to being friends instead of this TR vs F-Class vs PR vs SR bullsh*t which doesn't help anybody.

Scott
 
Unfortunately, the problems go well beyond range bookings. They were present long before last year's range closures and will still be there when ranges become available. The range situation only exasperated them. See the 6th paragraph of C.C's post and understand that more than 50% of that council is from one discipline. Yes, they'll allow representatives from other disciplines onto it, but not enough to break the 50% mark.

Unless someone has connections like the SR/CQB director, getting anything done is next to impossible. The "solution" is always to go to the next meeting to discuss it or discuss it further at the next meeting. No action ever comes of it. It's a carrot on a stick. Tow the current enthusiastic new person along until they give up and leave, then do the same to the next one that tries. You don't have to play the game for very long to see what's going on.
 
Step 1, show up at the AGM on March 5th.
Step 2, state your case and demand a membership refund.
Step 3, Take control of the ORA. Have people willing to be elect a new president, chairman of council, membership secretary, secretary, finance committee/financial planner, public relations/web page, CFO/ATT coordinator. Be prepared to form a program committee, and have people in place to act as match directors and discipline chairs. Coordinate with Range Control in Petawawa for range time at Cedar Springs and Winona. Deal with Range Control at Kingston and Range Control at Borden for all disciplines. You will also need to coordinate with D'Cadets about the contract we have to support the cadet shooting program at our annual matches. You will also need to coordinate with the DCRA about co-joint membership, insurance etc. Prepare a report to the Ontario Council of Shooters for funding. Meet with Members of Parliament across the province about range issues.

The list goes on and on.

Once all the above is in place the you are running the ORA, you can stop your #####ing. Oh ya, and by the way you have to do all this on your own free time with zero pay.

See everyone at the AGM.
 
FTRrookie

Kudo for the work the NCRRA and DCRA running the matches we enjoy every year. Don’t let this hiccup with the ORA diminish what you folks do things will get sorted out.

Trevor
 
Take over control of ORA ?

I have been shooting f class for 10 years at Ranges in Ont Borden, Kingston and Ottawa as well Val Cartier in Quebec.
I have shot Kingston at least 12 times or more. The shoots there are very well organized and probably have the best R/O I have seen in Mark Nichol absolutely the best and is so pleasant of a gentleman.
Fazel Mohideen is a class act, he always contacts me for head count of shooters to attend Kingston shoots so he has appropriate targets for F class. You hardly have time to put your equipment away after last relay and Fazel is doing presentation of prizes

The things to take over control that Maynard has brought up of The ORA is absolutely crazy
The board of Directors on ORA now

Mark Nichol
Fazal Mohideen
Bob Raymond
Pat Vamplew
Bruce Condie
Peter Westlake
Antony Betts
ETC
are outstanding,fine Gentlemen
go to meeting in March and work something acceptable to all
If you can't attended go to ORA website and send a email on your concerns and thoughts.

http://www.ontariorifleassociation.ca/contact

Donna Vamplew went out of her way to make the ORA shoot in Aug in Ottawa a success

I can not believe that these members & Directors of the ORA won't work with everyone to make things work out for all shooters
we all mostly shoot on DND ranges across Canada and the ORA, NCRRA & DCRA have run events for many many years with no mishaps they all run safe ranges. remember one bad accident and our use of ranges could be gone !
Your F class, TR, PR rifles would be worth no more 30 to 40 cents on the dollar of there value (no place to use them)
Manitou
 
You do realize that raving about how great the annual TR match was, and how much effort went into it when others didn't get a single match and were told to wait till next year's meeting to even discuss alternatives only reinforces what we're "#####ing" about right?
 
manitou210 said:
I have been shooting f class for 10 years at Ranges in Ont Borden, Kingston and Ottawa as well Val Cartier in Quebec.
I have shot Kingston at least 12 times or more. The shoots there are very well organized and probably have the best R/O I have seen in Mark Nichol absolutely the best and is so pleasant of a gentleman.
Fazel Mohideen is a class act, he always contacts me for head count of shooters to attend Kingston shoots so he has appropriate targets for F class. You hardly have time to put your equipment away after last relay and Fazel is doing presentation of prizes

The things to take over control that Maynard has brought up of The ORA is absolutely crazy
The board of Directors on ORA now

Mark Nichol
Fazal Mohideen
Bob Raymond
Pat Vamplew
Bruce Condie
Peter Westlake
Antony Betts
ETC
are outstanding,fine Gentlemen
go to meeting in March and work something acceptable to all
If you can't attended go to ORA website and send a email on your concerns and thoughts.

http://www.ontariorifleassociation.ca/contact

Donna Vamplew went out of her way to make the ORA shoot in Aug in Ottawa a success

I can not believe that these members & Directors of the ORA won't work with everyone to make things work out for all shooters
we all mostly shoot on DND ranges across Canada and the ORA, NCRRA & DCRA have run events for many many years with no mishaps they all run safe ranges. remember one bad accident and our use of ranges could be gone !
Your F class, TR, PR rifles would be worth no more 30 to 40 cents on the dollar of there value (no place to use them)
Manitou
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Let me say this.
I do not disagree that the names mention above are class acts and it has nothing to do with other disciplines. It's strange that I found out before the PR clinic that Borden was going to be a no go for 2015. So do you not think for a minute that the powers to be did not know this also.? There were new members at the clinic along with senior member who attended the clinic and paid thinking that there was going to be a PR season. So let's not pretend that everything is fine because if this were to happen with other disciplines I'm sure a lot of other members would be pissed. look into it yourself and then tell me what else was offered to the members in regards to PR matches and I'm sure you will find out nothing. At the end of the day we are all paying members and should be treated the same .
 
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maynard said:
Step 1, show up at the AGM on March 5th.
Step 2, state your case and demand a membership refund.
Step 3, Take control of the ORA. Have people willing to be elect a new president, chairman of council, membership secretary, secretary, finance committee/financial planner, public relations/web page, CFO/ATT coordinator. Be prepared to form a program committee, and have people in place to act as match directors and discipline chairs. Coordinate with Range Control in Petawawa for range time at Cedar Springs and Winona. Deal with Range Control at Kingston and Range Control at Borden for all disciplines. You will also need to coordinate with D'Cadets about the contract we have to support the cadet shooting program at our annual matches. You will also need to coordinate with the DCRA about co-joint membership, insurance etc. Prepare a report to the Ontario Council of Shooters for funding. Meet with Members of Parliament across the province about range issues.

Once all the above is in place the you are running the ORA, you can stop your #####ing. Oh ya, and by the way you have to do all this on your own free time with zero pay.
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As a ORA member for many years, I have never been given the opportunity to vote or Proxy vote for that matter, AGM or not. Nothing against the existing people on the council but it is clear they are appointed rather than voted. Looking at the minutes of the AGM from the journals in the previous years, no section ever formally or even hints at the attempt of collecting votes from all ORA members (live or proxy), to determine whom is elected to the council. The most recent example is Paul K, whom was appointed to be F class head. I do not recall a formal votes collected by all members to facilitate this.

I am not condemning (but appreciate) the amount the volunteering or background work these fine ladies and gentlemen do. However, the lack of communication, the way issues are handled and structure of the organization is a problem.

And for you to claim these issue are so called "#####ing", you (and like the ORA) lack the decency and respect toward your fellow members, whom without, will lead to toward the destruction of the organization.

Choose your words wisely.
 
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