2016 ORA outlook

C.C, the #####ing started right from page one of this thread. I have said numerous times to attend the AGM and vote, I think last years AGM had about 20-25 people out of approx. 235 members. People won't come out to meetings, don't vote, won't volunteer, but will just sit back and complain on how they are hard done by and getting screwed over.

The last F Class Chair, Bruce C wanted to step down as the Chair and Paul K was asked. Let's face it, getting people to volunteer is almost impossible. We have a hard time getting match organizers or people to run a practice day let alone chair a discipline.

Both Mons and Amiens where closed this year, with Amiens opening later in the season. Why the PR Chair did not ask for range time at Amiens later in the season or Kingston is something that you would have to ask the PR Chair himself. Did he alone decide to throw in the towel on the whole season? Or did he approach the PR shooters and ask for their input? Was he willing to move the PR program a few hours up the road to Kingston and were the PR shooters given that option?
 
Nice fluff post, but you didn't address why regular members who have attended numerous AGMs have never been given the opportunity to vote on anything, let along council.

C.C said:
As a ORA member for many years, I have never been given the opportunity to vote or Proxy vote for that matter, AGM or not. Nothing against the existing people on the council but it is clear they are appointed rather than voted. Looking at the minutes of the AGM from the journals in the previous years, no section ever formally or even hints at the attempt of collecting votes from all ORA members (live or proxy), to determine whom is elected to the council. The most recent example is Paul K, whom was appointed to be F class head. I do not recall a formal votes collected by all members to facilitate this.
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I've been to many meetings, including AGMs. Have been to four AGMs by my count and not once were regular members given the opportunity to vote on anything, not once. I was put on council at a meeting that immediately followed an AGM. Members were never given an opportunity to vote on that. They weren't even told it was going to happen.

People don't go to the meetings because it accomplishes nothing. This notion that members can show up and vote is a load of BS. If it can be done, the procedure for doing is not volunteered in the same way information on getting ranges is not volunteered to match directors. If they don't know about it they can't act on it, and that's probably quite intentional.

Sorry, people aren't buying what you're selling. They've been duped by it numerous times already. Just do the honorable thing and give them back their money, they have no interest in continuing with your organization.
 
I paid the ORA annual fee and what did ORA do for us? Nothing. I need PR matches this year and years ahead. I noticed the PR is growing and new shooters are interested in PR matches.
I'd be appreciated to get a refund.
 
Hello all shooters,

A few points. First and foremost, there are big storm clouds on the near horizon.

1.The forces that hate guns, hunting and sport shooting (and know nothing about them ) will be coming up with new legislation soon to restrict our activities. We need to be sticking together instead of fighting eachother.

2. If there are no volunteers to run organizations and shooting events then there is no shooting. People are being a little hard on these volunteers who are mostly doing a great job.
Did they #### up on communication about Borden? Yup! Is it their fault that Borden was closed? NO!

3. It's been my experience that those who complain the loudest and longest, DO the least.(And then make excuses for doing nothing). Many hands make light work. We need more volunteers and more people helping out.
Get off the stands on the sidelines and get in the game. It takes a little effort and a little preparation work to come to the AGM and be effective. Come to the AGM on March 5, at the Kingston Rd Legion at 11am.

4. Process IS important. If you want to see a more democratic ORA then come to the meeting prepared with your friends to demand more votes.
Bruce Condie stepped down as F class rep and I stepped up. But.... You are right ! There should be a vote. I will step down as F class rep at the AGM meeting and make a motion from the floor that there should be a vote.
It takes people on the floor to support motions like that. See you ALL at the meeting.

Remember, there's a #### storm coming our way. We need to stick together, be proactive, prepare and act now to protect our sport.

Paul Kahnert
 
Doubleblue said:
3. It's been my experience that those who complain the loudest and longest, DO the least.(And then make excuses for doing nothing). Many hands make light work. We need more volunteers and more people helping out.
Get off the stands on the sidelines and get in the game. It takes a little effort and a little preparation work to come to the AGM and be effective. Come to the AGM on March 5, at the Kingston Rd Legion at 11am.
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Really? So writing a match manual on my honeymoon to try and get an alternative going is doing nothing? Petitioning for years to get access to an alternative venue that initially was touted by the leadership is doing nothing? Petitioning all summer long to get access to that when PR shooters had no matches is doing nothing? Having been a match director, having been on council and having been to those AGMs 4 years in a rows is doing nothing? This is being on the sidelines and not in the game to you? It's funny to have people who shoot TR or with TR (and got matches) come here and pontificate when they've just started doing what others have already done for years.

Why did we need to wait for nearly a year for an AGM to discuss alternatives when it was clear in the spring that the ranges would be closed? PR shooters had nothing and a proposal WAS put forward by people who WERE volunteering and stepping up. Yet, an emergency meeting couldn't be held to take action on that and to hammer out a solution? We were more than willing, but no, we had to wait till next year's AGM to discuss it? Just business as usual even in desperate times, I guess. But, they still gladly took our money. I wonder if an emergency meeting would have been held if it was TR that was in that situation? I think we all know the answer to that...

You're already getting the classic treatment. You wrote them a nice letter asking for something to be done about last year's situation, and you got a reply telling you to pound sand (I was copied on it). Then magically, you're on council telling everyone to go to a meeting. Some meeting in the future is always the solution with them. You're being towed along, as I was. They had already made a decision (see post #24) yet kept telling me to come to meetings and discuss it. I've already found out that Meaford is off the table this year through an alternative organization. Wasn't hard to find out when those that can inquire DO take action.

As for the whining BS about no volunteers. Let's think about it for a minute. They have a nice e-mail system that can message every member. You know, the one that's used to tell us our matches are cancelled. If they were really looking for people for various things and/or if they wanted people to vote on something, you don't think they would have sent out messages about that with that system? If members really got to vote on things like council positions, you don't think there would be some e-mails going out asking for people who are interested, then some more e-mails listing the various candidates? No, of course not! It makes much more sense that something like that would just be a surprise announcement at an AGM and people would be asked to make a commitment on it without any time to think about it or discuss it with their family, then have people vote on it. Yeah, that makes perfect sense! They could have used that e-mail system at any time to solicit for volunteers, council positions, etc... but we hear nothing but match cancellations from it. The truth is that they select volunteers, and if the people they select say no, then there is "no one willing to step up". If it really was open, there would have been e-mails about it sent to all members. Pretty logical, isn't it?

Not interested in your meeting, going to the AI match in FL instead. Will continue working with other groups whose vision extends beyond TR-centric matches to bring something to shooters who aren't interested in shooting those. In the meantime, I would encourage people wanting to shoot PR to look at the OSA matches, NSCC, the Petawawa Sharpshooter match and the matches at BWSA that are right across the border from Sarnia.
 
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Doubleblue said:
Did they #### up on communication about Borden? Yup! Is it their fault that Borden was closed? NO!
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"In the absence of fact, perception becomes reality"
This couldn't be more true. Thte total lack of communication from the ORA has left everyone with the perception that nothing is being done. If the organization doesn't react to that perception, the damage to the membership in terms of numbers and confidence will be severe. We shouldn't have to wait for the AGM to get the information that we should have had months ago.
 
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For those that feel the struggle to improve the ORA is worth the efforts, I highly suggest attending the AGM as mentioned in previous posts.
I would strongly recommend contacting your discipline's Director(s) to coordinate your concerns/recommendations to the BOD and AGM attendees.
Personally, I plan to attend in the hopes of at least getting some answers and a better understanding of where the future of the
ORA is heading.

For those that have had enough and are going elsewhere, I cannot argue your feelings and wish you the best in your endeavors.
I understand the frustrations.

Winter well
Regards
Gord O
 
Keep trying to drive that wedge between the TR and F Class shooters and all the other disciplines, there kombatotch.
I don't know where you get off thinking the TR and F class programs went off without a hitch and people having to do a lot more travelling than usual last year.
 
Never said they went off without a hitch, only that they went off, which is something you can't say about PR. But, by all means keep complaining about the amount of travelling you had to do to go to the matches that you DID have.
 
kombayotch said:
Really? So writing a match manual on my honeymoon to try and get an alternative going is doing nothing? Petitioning for years to get access to an alternative venue that initially was touted by the leadership is doing nothing? Petitioning all summer long to get access to that when PR shooters had no matches is doing nothing? Having been a match director, having been on council and having been to those AGMs 4 years in a rows is doing nothing? This is being on the sidelines and not in the game to you? It's funny to have people who shoot TR or with TR (and got matches) come here and pontificate when they've just started doing what others have already done for years.

Why did we need to wait for nearly a year for an AGM to discuss alternatives when it was clear in the spring that the ranges would be closed? PR shooters had nothing and a proposal WAS put forward by people who WERE volunteering and stepping up. Yet, an emergency meeting couldn't be held to take action on that and to hammer out a solution? We were more than willing, but no, we had to wait till next year's AGM to discuss it? Just business as usual even in desperate times, I guess. But, they still gladly took our money. I wonder if an emergency meeting would have been held if it was TR that was in that situation? I think we all know the answer to that...

You're already getting the classic treatment. You wrote them a nice letter asking for something to be done about last year's situation, and you got a reply telling you to pound sand (I was copied on it). Then magically, you're on council telling everyone to go to a meeting. Some meeting in the future is always the solution with them. You're being towed along, as I was. They had already made a decision (see post #24) yet kept telling me to come to meetings and discuss it. I've already found out that Meaford is off the table this year through an alternative organization. Wasn't hard to find out when those that can inquire DO take action.

As for the whining BS about no volunteers. Let's think about it for a minute. They have a nice e-mail system that can message every member. You know, the one that's used to tell us our matches are cancelled. If they were really looking for people for various things and/or if they wanted people to vote on something, you don't think they would have sent out messages about that with that system? If members really got to vote on things like council positions, you don't think there would be some e-mails going out asking for people who are interested, then some more e-mails listing the various candidates? No, of course not! It makes much more sense that something like that would just be a surprise announcement at an AGM and people would be asked to make a commitment on it without any time to think about it or discuss it with their family, then have people vote on it. Yeah, that makes perfect sense! They could have used that e-mail system at any time to solicit for volunteers, council positions, etc... but we hear nothing but match cancellations from it. The truth is that they select volunteers, and if the people they select say no, then there is "no one willing to step up". If it really was open, there would have been e-mails about it sent to all members. Pretty logical, isn't it?

Not interested in your meeting, going to the AI match in FL instead. Will continue working with other groups whose vision extends beyond TR-centric matches to bring something to shooters who aren't interested in shooting those. In the meantime, I would encourage people wanting to shoot PR to look at the OSA matches, NSCC, the Petawawa Sharpshooter match and the matches at BWSA that are right across the border from Sarnia.
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There's always an exception to the rule..... I completely understand your anger and frustration. I'm sorry that you either did not have enough numbers or people on the floor to support you in past AGM's.
A critical mass may now have been reached and we may have enough people pissed off enough to come out to the meeting and make some real changes.
The ORA does need to be more democratic and does need to do a much better job at communicating. We're going to try to achieve that.

One things for sure, if no one shows up, nothing will change.
 
Bermuda said:
That's disappointing... what was the reason given?
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Due to their visitors... I imagine they are overwhelmed with that. The good news is that they said to revisit it in a year and the people who are needed to make it happen from a logistical standpoint are all on board. The director of the PRS has trained there and really wants to see a PRS match held there. And, there are already sponsors wanting to sponsor the match.

BWSA is planning to extend their range past 1000, then they will also look at holding PRS matches. I will be helping Will with those.
 
Doubleblue said:
I'm sorry that you either did not have enough numbers or people on the floor to support you in past AGM's.
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Has nothing to do with numbers. Regular members have never been given anything to vote on at past AGMs. The match directors and executives give their reports, the members are given a chance to give feedback, and that's it. There is no voting by regular members. The only voting that ever took place was done by council at meetings that take place after the AGMs, that regular members cannot attend.

Even if there were some kind of elections, nothing has ever been sent out ahead of time to tell people there are positions that need to be filled. Few people are going to be able to commit to something right there on the spot without consulting with their spouse.
 
So yes this past season sucked a lot for all shooting in Ontario. Some worse then other. Everyone had to travel more and shot less. And yes the ORA did a horrible job of communication with range closers and refunding any money back to its member. (Full disclosure I heard this might be happening early in the season and did not purchase a membership) I can not see you getting any more money out of them with the world's being shot in Ottawa next year.
With these two issues behind us we need to look to the future of this organization and see where it needs to go in the short term and long term.

Short term: first and foremost we need to have some more transparency and communication. Instead of having a range closer leak out slowly they should had announced it as soon as they had details. At this point they could have offered a discount on activity fees and offered alternatives for the season ahead. This I believe would have kept most people happy or at least not a pissed off. To follow up with this they could have sent out updates periodically. The more people are informed of a situation the less time they have to conjure up their own ideas of what is happening.

transparency: I have only been involved with this organization for 3 years so I do not know lot of it past history. What I have gathered is it is run by a small number of volunteers that have a great passion for this sport. I do not know if any one is ever voted in or are just appointed. There is no information about this on their website. ANY club I have ever been involved with has had full transparency on how the leaders are elected. I understand to get all members in a room would be impossible but you could run a proxy vote. I am not saying kick everyone out and vote them in, but as people step down ask for candidates and have a vote. #I believe this would the show a more balanced representation of the club and where it wants to go in the future.
As for long term that is up to the members to decide and vote in the people they want representing them.

I am hoping the higher ups in the ORA are following this thread and are taking note of what people are saying and suggesting. The only way to do this is for people to show up at the AGM and voice there options and demand change.


Ryan
 
Maynard honestly man you define a broken record. Let's stop the pissing match of discipline vs discipline and focus on one main point. ORA knew damn well what was happening at Borden. And some magical way, you claim for various other reasons. But there were disciplines that were taken care of to accommodate for the year. And some were completely forgotten. You and I both know that was known well before we were all sending in our cheques. That's the point! period!

So why wasn't there a plan b for PR? Or why not make the PR shooters aware and not take our money? And please don't tell me why didnt we shoot another discipline, were members of ORA not ora PR section. No I paid ORA for PR. I'm sure if f class and TR were cancelled and all that was available was CQB you and the other borden tailgaters would have been singing a different tune.

Future meetings, votes etc is all pointless. I'm not mad about the future of ORA and future changes. I'm mad about a boys club stealing from me and others like me. As I said before. They knew we were not going to shoot PR and had no problem taking our money. That's theft. And if they truly didn't know, go ahead and prove it and give me my money back. That's the point. So please continue and write yet another post about how I can shoot other disciplines, come to vote and totally ignore the theft that went on.
 
Chago said:
Maynard honestly man you define a broken record. Let's stop the pissing match of discipline vs discipline and focus on one main point. ORA knew damn well what was happening at Borden. And some magical way, you claim for various other reasons. But there were disciplines that were taken care of to accommodate for the year. And some were completely forgotten. You and I both know that was known well before we were all sending in our cheques. That's the point! period!

So why wasn't there a plan b for PR? Or why not make the PR shooters aware and not take our money? And please don't tell me why didnt we shoot another discipline, were members of ORA not ora PR section. No I paid ORA for PR. I'm sure if f class and TR were cancelled and all that was available was CQB you and the other borden tailgaters would have been singing a different tune.

Future meetings, votes etc is all pointless. I'm not mad about the future of ORA and future changes. I'm mad about a boys club stealing from me and others like me. As I said before. They knew we were not going to shoot PR and had no problem taking our money. That's theft. And if they truly didn't know, go ahead and prove it and give me my money back. That's the point. So please continue and write yet another post about how I can shoot other disciplines, come to vote and totally ignore the theft that went on.
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Chago,
As for being a Borden tailgater, I am 4+ hours away from Borden so I think not. I have enough problems dealing with getting range time at Cedar Springs. I could right you a flucking book on the issues we have down this way with getting range time.

I am not the one trying to drive a wedge between the disciplines. Most people here are thinking it is a TR/F Class against the PR shooters, it is not. TR and F Class moved the Annual Matches to Ottawa in order to shoot long range and to fulfill our contract with the Cadet Shooting program. Other TR and F Class matches were also cancelled. The long range match was cancelled as well as the Fall Palma and Mons Club Championship. The ISU Match was move to Winona. The June Match and Fall Match normally held in Kingston went as planned except the Fall Match was changed to a one day format instead of 2 days.

I can not answer the question on why the PR program didn't go with a "Plan B". I think I did ask in one post if the PR director himself cancelled the program or if it was a decision made by the PR shooters in general. Were they willing to move the PR program 3-5 hours up the road to Kingston or Connaught? Were they willing to shoot a reduced course of fire at reduced targets? Did the PR director ask for alternative ranges when we knew for sure that Borden wasn't available? Why didn't the PR program book Amiens and shoot on reduced target once it opened? Were the PR shooter willing to run 2 day matches at Connaught, instead of one day matches at Borden to make the drive worth while? No one on here has ever answered these questions.

The DND isn't always as forthcoming with information as people might think. The first time I heard about Mons being closed is "that it might be closed for the season" Then I heard that Amiens would be open. Then Amiens would be closed for the same issued as Mons. Then budget realities set in and Mons was/is closed but work was completed at Amiens, with Mons likely to be closed for all of 2016. I also heard that the military was using Mons 2 weeks ago.

Volunteers run the organization. For some it means taking time off from their jobs to attend meetings with everyone from Range Control to local MP's to the cadet shooting program coordinator . It means countless hour on the phone and tons of emails to try to set up meetings with the people that own and control the ranges that we shoot on. These volunteers are also the first ones to get ####e upon by the members that don't get their own way or that think their feelings have been hurt in some way.

The ORA did post a job for the ORA secretary position in several ORA Journals (at least 2 years) Not too many people jumped up to volunteer for this job. The pay is ####e and the hours required are long. Yet everyone likes to sit back and ##### about nothing being done.
 
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