22 Bullet Comparison
- Thread starter scorpio_21
- Start date
I agree with the above. I found this thread to be very interesting and informative!!
Well, I'll keep it gong then 
Sorry I don't have a camera. I have to borrow one whenever I take picture. So this will be a written report only.
I went shooting indoors today. 20 yards. First off I had to use a makeshift benchrest bag from the flat bean bags they had. Seems someone stole the really good front bag rests. This set up wasn't ideal but it worked just fine. It also motivates me to get my Caldwell Benchrest 1000 rest up and running.
Before I get to the ammo tests, we'll introduce the equipment.
So two rimfire rifles: Remington 597 TVP and my Ruger K10/22T target model.
Both outfitted with Falcon Menace 4-14x 44mm FFP scopes. Although I would prefer that the crosshair was finer at the 14x magnificaiton, it did work well. I have the ML16 crosshair (basically MP20) with metric turrets. These scopes were picked for my Semi autos for a number of reasons
1) Parallex done to 10 yards so I can shoot indoors during the winter
2) Quality and performance price ratio. Under $400 each.
3) Positive reviews and an excellent feature set
Also keep in mind these are Semi autos. I plan on using them for target shooting, but also longer distance plinking, and maybe some varminting, etc. So they are meant to be multipurpose.
They worked well. No complaints for a multipurpose scope. I wouldn't chose this for a competition or strictly dedicated paper puncher though. But then again that's not what this scope was designed for.
The Remington 597 TVP:
-all stock. Scope was mounted on the Weaver rail with Burris rings by a gunsmith.
-The trigger is definitely a weakness, and is equivalent to the stock one on the Ruger 10/22 target models (which are lighter than the regular Ruger rifles)
-The front part of the barrel needs to be free floated. There is a noticeable although small change in POI between cold shots and when the barrel has a few rounds through it. The change does seem to be associated with heat/cooling. I will be taking a dowel and some sandpaper to free float this small area.
- Mags. Hard to load past 7 rounds in the 10 round ones. The one that came with the rifle worked no problems. Of the 3 extras that I bought only one works and seats properly . The other 2 just fall out.
-No jams, FTF etc. Everything I shot functioned well.
The Ruger 10/22 T
-The trigger has been modified by a gunsmith and is now excellent. The stock trigger was the same as the 597 TVP. Usable but not much fun.
-Hex take down screw was put in to replaced the slotted one
-The Weaver mount was replaced with a Leupold Ruger 10/22 base. I definitely prefer this over the weaver base. I'll be checking to see if one is available for the 597.
The barrel, action and laminate stock are all factory.
-The 10 round rotary mags work flawlessly and are easy to load. This is the best .22 mag system I've used.
-The only flaw with this rifle vs the 597 seems to be the lack of a bolt hold open. Also the mag release can be hard to get sometimes. Although the 597 mag release location could also be a bit better.
Next post: The ammo test
Sorry I don't have a camera. I have to borrow one whenever I take picture. So this will be a written report only.
I went shooting indoors today. 20 yards. First off I had to use a makeshift benchrest bag from the flat bean bags they had. Seems someone stole the really good front bag rests
. This set up wasn't ideal but it worked just fine. It also motivates me to get my Caldwell Benchrest 1000 rest up and running. Before I get to the ammo tests, we'll introduce the equipment.
So two rimfire rifles: Remington 597 TVP and my Ruger K10/22T target model.
Both outfitted with Falcon Menace 4-14x 44mm FFP scopes. Although I would prefer that the crosshair was finer at the 14x magnificaiton, it did work well. I have the ML16 crosshair (basically MP20) with metric turrets. These scopes were picked for my Semi autos for a number of reasons
1) Parallex done to 10 yards so I can shoot indoors during the winter
2) Quality and performance price ratio. Under $400 each.
3) Positive reviews and an excellent feature set
Also keep in mind these are Semi autos. I plan on using them for target shooting, but also longer distance plinking, and maybe some varminting, etc. So they are meant to be multipurpose.
They worked well. No complaints for a multipurpose scope. I wouldn't chose this for a competition or strictly dedicated paper puncher though. But then again that's not what this scope was designed for.
The Remington 597 TVP:
-all stock. Scope was mounted on the Weaver rail with Burris rings by a gunsmith.
-The trigger is definitely a weakness, and is equivalent to the stock one on the Ruger 10/22 target models (which are lighter than the regular Ruger rifles)
-The front part of the barrel needs to be free floated. There is a noticeable although small change in POI between cold shots and when the barrel has a few rounds through it. The change does seem to be associated with heat/cooling. I will be taking a dowel and some sandpaper to free float this small area.
- Mags. Hard to load past 7 rounds in the 10 round ones. The one that came with the rifle worked no problems. Of the 3 extras that I bought only one works and seats properly . The other 2 just fall out.
-No jams, FTF etc. Everything I shot functioned well.
The Ruger 10/22 T
-The trigger has been modified by a gunsmith and is now excellent. The stock trigger was the same as the 597 TVP. Usable but not much fun.
-Hex take down screw was put in to replaced the slotted one
-The Weaver mount was replaced with a Leupold Ruger 10/22 base. I definitely prefer this over the weaver base. I'll be checking to see if one is available for the 597.
The barrel, action and laminate stock are all factory.
-The 10 round rotary mags work flawlessly and are easy to load. This is the best .22 mag system I've used.
-The only flaw with this rifle vs the 597 seems to be the lack of a bolt hold open. Also the mag release can be hard to get sometimes. Although the 597 mag release location could also be a bit better.
Next post: The ammo test
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The ammo test:
I've shot the Ruger a lot so I know what it likes. It shoots American Eagle 40 grain Ok for plinking/varminting. It shoots CCI standard velocity very well. But for accuracy it really likes Lapua Super club.
With the scope, and the trigger lightened, this rifle was a real joy to shoot. It shot the Lapua very accurately and the groups did shrink a little compared to the pre trigger and the non rimfire compatible scope I had on before. A small but noticeable difference. I have a GM 20" fluted barrel for this rifle. At this point I don't see the point in putting it on. The factory barrel is shooting exceptionally well. We'll see when I go out to 50 yards in the Spring.
Now the really interesting ammo test: The 597 TVP
Note: I run a bore snake through twice after changing ammo
So I tried the 40 grain American Eagle solids. My standard plinking/varmint round for .22 rifles. Eek 2-2.5 inch groups at 20 yards indoors. Complete crap. I shot about 8 rounds to see if it would group at all. It didn't.
Next target. Winchester Super X. Not so Super. 2 inch group and very high for POI. Complete crap with this rifle.
Lapua Super club. First couple were off as the wax seasoned the barrel. Then groups started to form. Then a few adjutments and it was dead on. This stock rifle showed potential with the Lapua Super club that matched that of the Ruger. Considering the trigger, I think it may have the potential to beat the Ruger with this ammo. At least it'll be very close.. I'm happy.
So I grab another box of Lapua Superclub. An inch to the right and 2.5 inch vertical stringing plus horizontal distance of half an inch. WTF?
Here's where threads like this help you figure out the mystery. I check. The Lapua I shot first was from my older stuff a few years ago. The next box was the recent stuff I bought. Same ammo, same specifications but different lot #.
Elley target ammo was also shot. It shot so so. Varmint accurate. Which is pretty lame considering this ammo is good stuff.
Right now I don't know about this rifle. It seems to be the most ammo sensitive rifle I've ever owned. If it's not a perfect match it shoots the stuff like a shotgun. I've also heard of other 597 rifles shooting 2-3 inch groups with regular ammo. So this doesn't seem to be an isolated event.
In terms of ammo I thought this would be interesting since it proved what's been stated on this thread about ammo choices and even going to the lot #.
With regards to the TVP. I like it when it shoots. But.... the Ruger is better. The whole point of the TVP is a "cheaper" target rifle to compete with the Ruger. People getting Cheaper Semi auto target rifles generally want to shoot cheaper ammo for plinking etc. So this defeats the point since it only shoots specific (very specific) and expensive ammo.
Sorry for the long post. I'll try and post pictures when I can.
I've shot the Ruger a lot so I know what it likes. It shoots American Eagle 40 grain Ok for plinking/varminting. It shoots CCI standard velocity very well. But for accuracy it really likes Lapua Super club.
With the scope, and the trigger lightened, this rifle was a real joy to shoot. It shot the Lapua very accurately and the groups did shrink a little compared to the pre trigger and the non rimfire compatible scope I had on before. A small but noticeable difference. I have a GM 20" fluted barrel for this rifle. At this point I don't see the point in putting it on. The factory barrel is shooting exceptionally well. We'll see when I go out to 50 yards in the Spring.
Now the really interesting ammo test: The 597 TVP
Note: I run a bore snake through twice after changing ammo
So I tried the 40 grain American Eagle solids. My standard plinking/varmint round for .22 rifles. Eek
2-2.5 inch groups at 20 yards indoors. Complete crap. I shot about 8 rounds to see if it would group at all. It didn't. Next target. Winchester Super X. Not so Super. 2 inch group and very high for POI. Complete crap with this rifle.
Lapua Super club. First couple were off as the wax seasoned the barrel. Then groups started to form. Then a few adjutments and it was dead on. This stock rifle showed potential with the Lapua Super club that matched that of the Ruger. Considering the trigger, I think it may have the potential to beat the Ruger with this ammo. At least it'll be very close.
. I'm happy. So I grab another box of Lapua Superclub. An inch to the right and 2.5 inch vertical stringing plus horizontal distance of half an inch.
WTF? Here's where threads like this help you figure out the mystery. I check. The Lapua I shot first was from my older stuff a few years ago. The next box was the recent stuff I bought. Same ammo, same specifications but different lot #.
Elley target ammo was also shot. It shot so so. Varmint accurate. Which is pretty lame considering this ammo is good stuff.
Right now I don't know about this rifle. It seems to be the most ammo sensitive rifle I've ever owned. If it's not a perfect match it shoots the stuff like a shotgun. I've also heard of other 597 rifles shooting 2-3 inch groups with regular ammo. So this doesn't seem to be an isolated event.
In terms of ammo I thought this would be interesting since it proved what's been stated on this thread about ammo choices and even going to the lot #.
With regards to the TVP. I like it when it shoots. But.... the Ruger is better. The whole point of the TVP is a "cheaper" target rifle to compete with the Ruger. People getting Cheaper Semi auto target rifles generally want to shoot cheaper ammo for plinking etc. So this defeats the point since it only shoots specific (very specific) and expensive ammo.
Sorry for the long post. I'll try and post pictures when I can.
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Maybe you won't agree with my opinion but...here it goes.
I think that testing .22 ammo indoors, at 20 yards is almost a waste of time. It might tell you which ammo is really terrible but if you want to do serious testing, it HAS to be done at 50 meters/yards. I know that we live in Canada and that testing outdoors is sometimes possible only 5-6 months a year but think about it: testing .22 ammo at 20 yards is about the same as developing a load for a 6PPC at...40 yards.
Paul
I think that testing .22 ammo indoors, at 20 yards is almost a waste of time. It might tell you which ammo is really terrible but if you want to do serious testing, it HAS to be done at 50 meters/yards. I know that we live in Canada and that testing outdoors is sometimes possible only 5-6 months a year but think about it: testing .22 ammo at 20 yards is about the same as developing a load for a 6PPC at...40 yards.
Paul
Well, I'll keep it gong then
Excellent, thank you!
I suppose we have to test what we can test, where we can test it?
Indoors offers no wind and limits any other variables such as temperature. The point is to find the most accurate ammo for the rifle. If it shoots 1 hole 5 round groups at 20 yards then it will shoot well at 25 (the accuracy seems to be almost the same at 25 as 20 and adjustments range from no change to one click up) and even 50. If it shoots a larger hole at that range, cloverleafs, or opens up then this will be shown proportionately at the longer ranges. Shooting indoors at 20 yards works very well to find the right ammo.
Plus I prefer having my rimfire rifles sighted indoors rather than outdoors. This way I know there isn't a slight breeze causing my zero to actually be off by one or two clicks. If it is off, I can anticipate that it's the wind/environmental conditions and adjust accordingly while still keeping a true zero on my scope.
Sorry, I realized I was unclear. I don't have a problem about indoor testing. All my testing is done at 50 yards indoor or at 50 meters outdoors, very early in the morning, when there's no wind. My concern was about the distance. I don't think that it it very useful to test .22LR ammo at 20 or 25 yards: it just don't tell you enough information. With a good rifle and good ammo, at these distances, it would be about impossible to really know which brand and/or lot number would be more accurate than the other.
As far as I'm concerned, I would never take the decision to buy a large quantity of quality ammo based on 20/25 yards testing.
Paul
As far as I'm concerned, I would never take the decision to buy a large quantity of quality ammo based on 20/25 yards testing.
Paul
I would agree that 20/25 yds is not telling enough. Also an average of several groups might be more indicative of true performance. After all one swallow doesn't make a summer.
In SB rifle silhouette 75% of your targets are beyond 50m so there is strong justification to test at 77 &100m, the distances of the furthest targets.
I have had ammo shoot well at even 50m that was useless at 100m.
The short range might be good for getting trigger time
In SB rifle silhouette 75% of your targets are beyond 50m so there is strong justification to test at 77 &100m, the distances of the furthest targets.
I have had ammo shoot well at even 50m that was useless at 100m.
The short range might be good for getting trigger time
The ammo test:
Now the really interesting ammo test: The 597 TVP
Note: I run a bore snake through twice after changing ammo
So I tried the 40 grain American Eagle solids. My standard plinking/varmint round for .22 rifles. Eek
Epoxy, I think its almost impossible to shoot 2" groups with any ammo without having some technical issues with rifle. With these semi's barrel sitting maybe an issue - I would be checking there first. All attaching points - stock to receiver, barrel to receiver, scope mount - you know, the usual stuff. Also scope parallax - I am sure you set it but worth checking the same scope one other rifles at 20. Extreme sensitivity to ammo also a hint something is not tight somewhere.
Yup. I've taken it apart and put it back together again. Everything seems tight. The only issue was the fact that it's not free floated near the receiver. Otherwise it looked good. The scope has parallax down to 10 yards. It was right on the 20 yard setting and the image was perfectly clear. No parrallax problems were observed when I moved my head side to side. The fact that it would shoot the one lot of Lapua ammo with perfect precision indicates that it's the barrel. Otherwise this ammo wouldn't shoot as well as it did. I shot other ammo and 2 inch groups. Complete garbage. Went back to the lot of Lapua that the rifle liked and it shot perfectly after about 5 shots for wax to season the barrel. Unfortunately I'm out of that lot and it doesn't shoot the new lot.
It just seems to be a very sensitive barrel to the ammo it likes. I don't like this much but there isn't anything I can do about it.
As for the ammo test. I'm testing ammo for 20 yard shooting (most indoor ranges), 25 yards and 50 yards. The ammo that shoots the best at 20 yards has shown to also shoot the best at the other two ranges. I do shoot at those ranges as well. I just prefer to sight in and test ammo indoors at the closer range.
As for the 100 yards. Yes I agree different ammo testing is needed. I also enjoy shooting my .22 semis at 200 yards. I can hit the gongs with my Rugger without any difficulty. But.... I shoot the 40 grain American Eagle when I do this. Why? 1240 FPS versus the 1050 fps of the Lapua. Same bullet weight, but it does better at longer ranges when the Lapua runs out of steam. That being said I wouldn't use this ammo at the closer ranges. It can't compete in my Ruger compared to the Lapua. If you're shooting 100 yards then I'd have a round specifically for that type of distance. What I generally do is have two rounds per gun. One for 20-50 yards accuracy and one general purpose round for varmint/plinking. Usually the American Eagle 40 grain solids but this depends on what the rifle likes.
p14shooter
Regular
- Location
- Nova Scotia
Can your groups be even tighter with the same ammo. I shoot Lapua SC partly because it is what I can afford and partly because I can get it local. However, I sort the ammo by rim thickness, and when I compete, I also sort by weight. I have never compared sorted ammo to unsorted, but that is on my list of things to do this winter to see if it is worth the time to do. I can sort while watching tv, but I can not spend more money. Does anyone else sort their ammo?
Ever consider the 48-grain Lapua Scoremax, for the longer-range occasions?
scorpio_21
Regular
- Location
- Western Canada
This thread turned out to be really informative, thanks
Anyone know if would you find Lapua .22 in Vancouver? I've picked up a few more brands and on my next trip I'll clean the barrel between sets. It'd be interesting to measure groupings and rank it against velocity. Is there any sort of profiling you could do on your barrel?
(i.e. 1000 fps @ 40gr poi=x, group likely y,
1200fps @ 40gr poi=x2, group = y2 ?)
Anyone know if would you find Lapua .22 in Vancouver? I've picked up a few more brands and on my next trip I'll clean the barrel between sets. It'd be interesting to measure groupings and rank it against velocity. Is there any sort of profiling you could do on your barrel?
(i.e. 1000 fps @ 40gr poi=x, group likely y,
1200fps @ 40gr poi=x2, group = y2 ?)
scorpio_21,
If you need Lapua ammo, you should definitively do business with Peter Dobson from Hirsch Precision. Huge inventory, fast and friendly service...it just can't get any better.
http://www.hirschprecision.com/22ammunition.htm
If you really want to buy locally, I have bought Lapua in the past from European Arms Distributor in North Vancouver.
Paul
If you need Lapua ammo, you should definitively do business with Peter Dobson from Hirsch Precision. Huge inventory, fast and friendly service...it just can't get any better.
http://www.hirschprecision.com/22ammunition.htm
If you really want to buy locally, I have bought Lapua in the past from European Arms Distributor in North Vancouver.
Paul
This thread turned out to be really informative, thanks
We just need more target-pics...
Perhaps you missed my huge picture on the 2nd page of this thread?
