22 conversion mag limits?

Cocked&Locked

Cocked&Locked

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As far as I understand the mess that is canadian gun law, rimfire rifles where unlimited in mag capacity, including the 22 AR conversions. I am also aware that smith and wesson AR pistol came out, and the RCMP then stated that S&W mags have to be 10 rd max, as they are marketed as interchangable for thier pistol. However, someone at the range last night said they where up at Epp's and Epps told them that now ALL ar 22 mags have to be pinned to 10.

whats the scoop?
 
S&W mags are interchangable with the Colt M4. Also Chiappa came out with a pistol and Chiappa, CMMG, Black Dog and a couple of others fit and are interchangeable. There's a circular out from the CFO's office in B.C. that explains how we're hooped. I suggest instead of us trying to pick each others brain here, contact CFC yourself. It might be more to the point.
 
browningautorifle said:
S&W mags are interchangable with the Colt M4. Also Chiappa came out with a pistol and Chiappa, CMMG, Black Dog and a couple of others fit and are interchangeable. There's a circular out from the CFO's office in B.C. that explains how we're hooped. I suggest instead of us trying to pick each others brain here, contact CFC yourself. It might be more to the point.
Click to expand...

I agree with your logic, if we become a pita for the CFOs they may although unlikely want to rethink this latest bit of poorly thought-out legislation.

The memo we got from the RCMP is pretty clear that they are now limiting ALL rimfire mags to 10 round only regardless of what the mags fit.
I believe it was an attempt to get the "centerfire" semi auto rifles that are adapted to shoot rimfire back into black letter law of 5 rounds with the 10 round pistol mag exemption, but as usual someone who did the writing had no concept of the ramifications.

I sure hope who ever gets elected has a budget fopr FAR more courts and prisons as they just made how many thousand more criminals????:eek:
 
alberta tactical rifle said:
The memo we got from the RCMP is pretty clear that they are now limiting ALL rimfire mags to 10 round only regardless of what the mags fit.
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Are you sure about that? The CCC Regs specifically exempt rimfire mags unless they are "designed or manufactured for use in a semi-automatic handgun that is commonly available in Canada" (the little catch they used re the S&W1522 mags.)

It doesn't look like they could interpret the reg to limit other rimfire mags to 10; there would have to be an amendment to the CCC Regs. At least that's how it looks to me.

Any chance you could post the contents of that memo here?
 
JimV said:
Are you sure about that? The CCC Regs specifically exempt rimfire mags unless they are "designed or manufactured for use in a semi-automatic handgun that is commonly available in Canada" (the little catch they used re the S&W1522 mags.)

It doesn't look like they could interpret the reg to limit other rimfire mags to 10; there would have to be an amendment to the CCC Regs. At least that's how it looks to me.

Any chance you could post the contents of that memo here?
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All of us read it over several times and came to the same conclusion, which is what I posted.
I will try and scare up the hard copy and post it, I am sure it is on my desk somewhere:redface:
 
Maybe this one too - just copied it off the CFC site (italics mine):

Maximum Permitted Magazine Capacity
Special Bulletin for Businesses No. 72

Background

The maximum capacity of a cartridge magazine is set out in Part 4 of the Regulations Prescribing Certain Firearms and other Weapons, Components and Parts of Weapons, Accessories, Cartridge Magazines, Ammunition and Projectiles as Prohibited or Restricted.* The Regulations prescribe “prohibited devices”, and a magazine that has a capacity which exceeds the maximum permitted capacity is a prohibited device. Businesses can be in possession of prohibited devices if appropriately licensed.* However, individuals may not possess prohibited devices.* **
The magazine regulations have been in force since 1993. However, in recent years, new cartridge magazines have been introduced which have resulted in novel situations as it concerns the application of the Regulations. There has been no change to the Regulations. Nonetheless, the application of the existing Regulations to a few new products has given the appearance of a change in the law. This has been particularly evident in the case of cartridge magazines designed or manufactured for more than one type of firearm.
Purpose
The purpose of this bulletin is to provide greater clarity on the maximum permitted capacity of cartridge magazines designed or manufactured for use in more than one kind of firearm. Note that the maximum permitted capacity of a magazine is determined by the physical characteristics of the firearm it is designed or manufactured for and the type of ammunition for which it is designed. The maximum permitted capacity of the magazine does not depend on the classification of the firearm, nor does the magazine capacity influence the classification of the firearm.

Current Issues

1. Magazines designed or manufactured for both rimfire calibre rifles and handguns
Magazines designed to contain rimfire cartridges and designed or manufactured for use in a rifle do not have a regulated capacity. However, magazines designed to contain rimfire cartridges and designed or manufactured for use in a semiautomatic handgun are limited to 10 cartridges. Magazines designed or manufactured for use in both rifles and semiautomatic handguns are subject to the handgun limit of 10 cartridges.
Example: 
Smith & Wesson M&P 15-22 rifle and 15-22P pistol chambered for 22LR caliber:
• the 10 round magazine is unregulated
• the 25 round magazine is a prohibited device

2. Magazines designed or manufactured for both centrefire calibre rifles and handguns
Magazines designed to contain centrefire cartridges and designed or manufactured for use in a semiautomatic rifle are limited to five cartridges. However, magazines designed to contain centrefire cartridges and designed or manufactured for use in a semiautomatic handgun are limited to 10 cartridges. Magazines designed or manufactured for use in both semiautomatic rifles and semiautomatic handguns are subject to the limit of five cartridges.
Example: 
Hi-Point rifle and handgun chambered for 9mm Luger caliber:
• magazine capacities over five rounds are prohibited.

3. Magazines designed or manufactured for both centrefire calibre semiautomatic rifles and other (non-semiautomatic) rifles
Magazines designed to contain centrefire cartridges and designed or manufactured for use in a semiautomatic rifle are limited to five cartridges. However, magazines designed to contain centrefire cartridges and designed or manufactured for use in a rifle other than a semiautomatic or automatic rifle, do not have a regulated capacity. Magazines that are designed or manufactured for use in both semiautomatic rifles and other (non-semiautomatic) rifles are subject to the semiautomatic rifle limit of five cartridges.
Example: 
Remington model 7615 pump action rifle chambered for 223 Remington caliber:
• the 10 round magazine is prohibited
• the five round magazine is unregulated

4. Magazines designed for one firearm but used in a different firearm
The maximum permitted capacity of a magazine is determined by the kind of firearm it is designed or manufactured for use in and not the kind of firearm it might actually be used in. As a consequence, the maximum permitted capacity remains the same regardless of which firearm it might be used in.
Example: 
The Marlin model 45 (Camp Carbine) rifle chambered for 45 Auto caliber uses magazines designed and manufactured for the Colt 1911 handgun, therefore the seven round and eight round capacities are permitted. A similar example is the 10 round capacity magazine for the Rock River Arms LAR-15 pistol, regardless of the kind of firearm it is actually used in.

5. Magazines for semiautomatic handguns which contain more than ten (10) rounds of a different calibre
Magazines designed to contain centrefire cartridges and designed or manufactured for use in a semiautomatic handgun, are limited to 10 cartridges. The capacity is measured by the kind of cartridge the magazine was designed to contain. In some cases the magazine will be capable of containing more than 10 rounds of a different caliber; however that is not relevant in the determination of the maximum permitted capacity.
Example: 
Heckler and Koch P7 pistol chambered for 9mm Luger caliber:
The magazine designed for the 40 S&W calibre variant of the pistol will hold 13 cartridges of 9mm Luger calibre and function in the 9mm Luger calibre P7 pistol. This is permissible as the maximum permitted capacity of the 40 S&W calibre magazine must be measured by the number of 40 S&W calibre cartridges it is capable of holding, which is 10 such cartridges in the case of the HK P7 pistol magazine.***
For more information, please contact the RCMP Canadian Firearms Program by one of the following methods:
telephone: 1 800-731-4000 ext. 2542
web site: www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/index-eng.htm 
e-mail: cfp-pcaf@rcmp-grc.gc.ca
This bulletin is intended to provide general information only. For legal references, please refer to the Firearms Act, the Criminal Code and Regulations. Provincial, territorial and municipal laws, regulations and policies may also apply.
Le présent bulletin est également disponible en français
 
So the merry band of classifiers has done it again. A retroactive classification based on dubious logic. New Chiappa owners, welcome to the criminal class. And many more to follow by the sounds of it.

When the 1522 magazine decision was made I posted an appeal for owners to write the Public Safety Minister demanding compensation. While that doesn't go to the heart of the problem it at least alerts the government that such decisions are not entirely without consequence. I don't know if anybody else did write. Most of the postings on this forum were helpful hints on pinning your own magazines or pie-in-the-sky fantasies that some third party manufacturer would build a mag that slipped through the prohibition crack. I suppose that if the government decreed that everyone should have a ring through their nose so they could be chained up from dusk til dawn these same people would insist on installing their own to save the $10 ring fee down at the government slavemaster shop.

I'm still pursuing the issue, but am frankly disappointed that most gun owners seem so indifferent (or even complicit) to their freedoms being eroded away. The gun orgs haven't shown a flicker of interest either. They're either obsessing about the LGR, reporting events in some far off place or busy trying to sell trinkets.

Gun owners have really got to wake up and demand some action from the politicians. Most of these ridiculous classification decisions derive from the CCC Regulations, any of which could be amended by a stroke of the pen in Cabinet. Most politicians are simply ignorant of the issues, but some are at least sympathetic. And with luck we'll have a government on May 3rd that's a little more amenable to reason. But absolutely nothing (nothing good, that is) is going to happen unless gun owners get off their butts and make a little noise.
 
Hmm, but questar is still selling 50 rnd drums, and black dog 28 rnders? This is clear as mud. Least i didn't buy a hi point that i can only put a 5 round mag in...thats good, in a ####ty sort of way......

Who do i contact to get an official statment on CCMG conversion kit mags? It seems to say they now have to be pinned to 10, but i see many businesses still selling un pinned ones.
 
Cocked&Locked said:
I'd be happy to, but i had a guy at the range on the weekend telling me Epps was pinning ALL 22 mags for AR conversions.........
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It would sure be nice if the $2 Billion pissed away on this farce could provide even one straight answer. I started a thread in the Rimfires forum on this and one guy called the CFC asking about 10/22 mags, which were confirmed to be not affected by the Chiappa ruling. It is going to be a s**t show if they decide that all AR22 mags are now pistol mags and must be limited to 10 rounds.

As soon as the election is over I will be after my MP about this matter. That would be an opportune moment to reign in this bureaucratic bulls**t and let the CPC explain to the RCMP who is running the show.

Mark
 
mmattockx said:
It would sure be nice if the $2 Billion pissed away on this farce could provide even one straight answer. I started a thread in the Rimfires forum on this and one guy called the CFC asking about 10/22 mags, which were confirmed to be not affected by the Chiappa ruling. It is going to be a s**t show if they decide that all AR22 mags are now pistol mags and must be limited to 10 rounds.

As soon as the election is over I will be after my MP about this matter. That would be an opportune moment to reign in this bureaucratic bulls**t and let the CPC explain to the RCMP who is running the show.

Mark
Click to expand...

It would be pleasent if they found out that getting a stupid hat and a red coat DIDN'T mean you can make it up as you go along.........
 
The RCMP have been very clear and specific on the S&W M&P 15-22 rimfire magazine issue (and the Chiappa magazine as well). This has nothing to do with the RCMP making up stuff... it has to do with politicians writing really bad laws.

Because of the way the legislation is worded, when a manufacturer "designs and manufactures" a magazine to be sold with BOTH a handgun and/or a pistol, then that magazine (specifically) is considered a dual use magazine and is limited to the more restrictive of the two possible capacity limitations.

S&W themselves designed and manufactured the magazine in question to be used in and sold with BOTH the rifle and the pistol version of their M&P 15-22 firearms. They advertised that fact and they confirmed that fact. This made the magazine a dual purpose magazine for the purpose of classification under Canada legislation. The same applies for the Chiappa magazine in question.

In the case of magazines built by Black Dog and many others, their AR-22 magazines (for example) were "designed and manufactured" to be used in the AR rifle conversion kits. Since they were designed for rifles they are classified as rifle magazines. It has nothing to do with what they might also fit or might later be used in... the law in this country does NOT regulate the firearm in which the magazine is subsequently used in and RCMP have repeatedly stated that fact.

Same for the 10/22 rifle magazines. They were all designed and manufactured for the 10/22 rifle... the appearance later of a 10/22 pistol would not affect the capacity of 10/22 rifle magazines unless someone designed and manufactured a magazine to be sold with BOTH guns.

RCMP have repeatedly ruled that simply "engraving" the words pistol or rifle on an already existing magazine DOES NOT make it a rifle or pistol magazine... the magazine must be "designed and manufactured" for that firearm and engraving something on an existing design or magazine does NOT change what it already is. The perfect example of that was the original Beretta CX4 storm rifle magazine ruling.

Black Dog's rimfire magazines have always been designed and manufactured for rifles (not pistols). They are classified as rim-fire rifle magazines with an unlimited capacity allowance.

Mark
 
Questar said:
The RCMP have been very clear and specific on the S&W M&P 15-22 rimfire magazine issue (and the Chiappa magazine as well). This has nothing to do with the RCMP making up stuff... it has to do with politicians writing really bad laws.

Because of the way the legislation is worded, when a manufacturer "designs and manufactures" a magazine to be sold with BOTH a handgun and/or a pistol, then that magazine (specifically) is considered a dual use magazine and is limited to the more restrictive of the two possible capacity limitations.

S&W themselves designed and manufactured the magazine in question to be used in and sold with BOTH the rifle and the pistol version of their M&P 15-22 firearms. They advertised that fact and they confirmed that fact. This made the magazine a dual purpose magazine for the purpose of classification under Canada legislation. The same applies for the Chiappa magazine in question.

In the case of magazines built by Black Dog and many others, their AR-22 magazines (for example) were "designed and manufactured" to be used in the AR rifle conversion kits. Since they were designed for rifles they are classified as rifle magazines. It has nothing to do with what they might also fit or might later be used in... the law in this country does NOT regulate the firearm in which the magazine is subsequently used in and RCMP have repeatedly stated that fact.

Same for the 10/22 rifle magazines. They were all designed and manufactured for the 10/22 rifle... the appearance later of a 10/22 pistol would not affect the capacity of 10/22 rifle magazines unless someone designed and manufactured a magazine to be sold with BOTH guns.

RCMP have repeatedly ruled that simply "engraving" the words pistol or rifle on an already existing magazine DOES NOT make it a rifle or pistol magazine... the magazine must be "designed and manufactured" for that firearm and engraving something on an existing design or magazine does NOT change what it already is. The perfect example of that was the original Beretta CX4 storm rifle magazine ruling.

Black Dog's rimfire magazines have always been designed and manufactured for rifles (not pistols). They are classified as rim-fire rifle magazines with an unlimited capacity allowance.

Mark
Click to expand...

Can't be any more clearer than this. Well said.
 
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