.22 how dangerous is it?
- Thread starter edyshok
- Start date
If what I read is a real account of the shootings the perp ran into the school room Shouting something about Anarchy and smash everything!
Some other student should have jumped up and said YEH RIGHT on and got close and coldcocked that little #### right there!
If we can't arm our school children we should teach them to be aware of the dangers and reaction neccesary to insure thier survival in this crazy new World they have to live in.
I know some of you (us) old timers would walk or ride your bikes to school with your old .22 co's and put themin your lockers and use them to hunt on the way home!
What the hell has happened to young people,and society in general all it would take is one Audie Murphy to have saved the day.
Bo
mad:
Some other student should have jumped up and said YEH RIGHT on and got close and coldcocked that little #### right there!
If we can't arm our school children we should teach them to be aware of the dangers and reaction neccesary to insure thier survival in this crazy new World they have to live in.
I know some of you (us) old timers would walk or ride your bikes to school with your old .22 co's and put themin your lockers and use them to hunt on the way home!
What the hell has happened to young people,and society in general all it would take is one Audie Murphy to have saved the day.
Bo
mad:
From what the news implied, that psycho was the product of the bullying that he received at his school.
Seems a lot of these rampage school killers were victims of bullying...I for one am glad that at least there is now a serious effort to address bullying in schools.
Seems a lot of these rampage school killers were victims of bullying...I for one am glad that at least there is now a serious effort to address bullying in schools.
Bullying is cheap excuse for poor parenting. Bullying is normal, it happens in the corporate(adult) world as well. Its called grow some balls and have a little self pride and self esteem. Oh hold on, that would require PARENTS to have taken an INTEREST in their child's life. Lets back this up one more stop. That would require BOTH PARENTS TOGETHER taking an interest in their child's life.
Instilling a little discipline(see spanking) when the child is young along with a healthy respect for ones elders as well as peers. Goes a long way to producing a USEFUL FUNCTIONING member of society. Couple that with some pride, self esteem and responsibility/accountability and you've got a citizen who respects themselves, others, and the freedoms for which they've earned. Like voicing your opinion and the right to be offended.
Today's society somehow believes that the world "owes them something". No, it is you who owes the world. We're all here on borrowed time, so use it wisely. The other "societal norm" is the belief that everyone is special and is capable of anything. This is complete crap! There are many many activites, traits, skills, or otherwise useful abilities that each and everyone one of us is not capable of doing. GET OVER IT. The world can't be filled with child prodigy's, doctors, lawyers, engineers, politicians, astronauts, professional athletes, or "save the world" organizations. We still need carpenters, plumbers, electricians, garbage men, janitors, mail men, road crews, cashiers, and any other skilled or "unskilled labourers". There is nothing wrong with any of these jobs.
Kids today are constantly fed a steady diet of propaganda right from the word go. College or university is NOT for everyone. Nor is it required to be successful in life. Unfortunately today's influential people such as teachers, doctors, child care workers etc. Seem to press post secondary education like they have something invested in it. Today's youth have little choice but to swallow this crap and work themselves into a melt down because they cannot get into university X or that they might not have enough money to attend college Y.
This is where some guidance and support from the PARENTS plays a role. For starters, two individuals were required(atleast there should have been two individuals) to produce the child. That means two are required to raise the child. Two opinions are better than one. As children develop they need the experience and support of their parents(or other quality adults) to aid them in making adult decisions. Especially those decisions that are new to them. Its hard to be a parent when you're trying to be a full time employee and keep food on the table. The long hours and extra money do nothing for progressing the childs development. Hence why two parents are required to do the job right.
If society required its citizens to take some responsibility and accountability for their actions. Many of our current problems would go away. Having a little pride in what you do whether that be in your personal or professional life will benefit you as well as others. Having a little discipline in your life allows you the ability to appreciate what you have as well as what others have. Having a little shame just might prevent you from doing something stupid. Lets see an example of this.
Johnny works at Walmart after school(Johnny is 16 years old) for some extra money. Instead of doing his job and helping customers, Johnny decides to clown around with co-workers and chase the girls. After being stopped by a customer for some assistance, Johnny lies to the customer and directs them to another employee so he can continue hanging out with his co-workers.
After work(or whatever it is he did) Johnny is going to hang out with some friends. Johnny's friends pick him up at work in their car. They arrive with some alcohol that one of his friends stole from home. johhny decides to drink with his friends and have a good time.
Johnny and his friends are new to alcohol and are soon drunk. For fun they decide to smash some bus stops and urinate on vehicles. Johnny and company get arrested and charged with several offences.
Now this little story may seem lame. It in fact is a true account of a former high school classmate. With a little pride, Johnny would do his job properly and could very well get promoted or get a raise. With some discipline he would refuse to drink, or at the very least refuse to ride in a vehicle where the driver is drinking. With a little bit of shame, Johnny would not have gotten drunk and would not urinate or damage public property.
Of course, today this sounds like an average night out for many teenagers. These same teens get older but fail to mature. Instead of damaging public property they're stealing cars, or poppy donation boxes. Beating the elderly in home invasions for a few bucks. Stabbing some kid in the head with a pick axe over some comment(this just happened a few weeks ago here in Calgary). I'm sure you all can find some tragic story that involves a similar type of person.
The root problem is parenting. Everything else is simply a cheap convenient excuse. The real problems are far too complicated and difficult to repair. Society wants answers, so something or someone gets the blame. No one ever questions the validity of the source. Lip service is what people want because real issues and real solutions require people to think and get involved. Our society is fat dumb and happy. Why would they care??
The same goes for this bullying crap. Its tough for a kid to accept bullying or realize that they are not "retarded, a ###, stupid, a loser, a pussy" etc etc. when there's no one to help them understand that some people are mean and will prey on anyone they feel they can intimidate. Again, the bully themselves are usually from broken homes where no one has taken an interest in their lives. The cycle repeats itself and propagates its own kind.
Like any predator, the weak and the sick are the easiest prey to catch. People who give off the vibe that they are either of those two criteria are more likely to become a victim. Bullying is only successful when someone willingly becomes a victim. Showing any sign of strength, confidence, or pride is enough to thwart a potential attack.
The ability to display such traits is often hindered by what I call "a vaginized society" and their ultra sensitive beliefs. When I went to school this is how it worked. Some kid always had to prove he was the tough guy. The mouthy guy who was in charge and demanded respect. The other kids had nothing to prove and could care less what this clown did. Naturally there's going to be some people who just don't get along. A fight would ensue and someone would get a good beating and that was the end of it. No guns, no knives, no group of friends to meet them at a later date. Unfortunately, our society does not approve of fighting or any sort of violence. Instead you're supposed to become dependent on others. Such as teachers or police officers. Heaven forbid if a kid decides to fix the problem himself. Informing the school administration often leads to no positive result. Why? Because there's nothing the school can do to discipline the bully. Suspensions and/or expulsions are a rare action these days. Instead this vaginized society believes we should "listen to these troubled kids. Throw more money and prescription drugs at them." What we should be doing is holding them responsible for their actions, discipline them accordingly, then address the issue as to why they act the way they do. That would be called parenting. Something that should be done on a daily basis BY THE PARENTS.
By holding the child responsible for their actions you are also holding the parents responsible, and today, responsible is not the "in" thing. Its hard to change that belief when we have Parents not much older than their children, with no partner, they have no interest in their childs life and are happy they have an xbox or computer to baby sit/raise their child. Obviously discipline and pride weren't high priorities on the parents list. How could we expect anything different from their children? What started this circle of waste? Society's acceptance of less than productive, respectful, and responsible citizens. Add in a good helping of "you can do anything" and "its okay if you fail" and its not hard to see why society is the way it is today.
TDC
Instilling a little discipline(see spanking) when the child is young along with a healthy respect for ones elders as well as peers. Goes a long way to producing a USEFUL FUNCTIONING member of society. Couple that with some pride, self esteem and responsibility/accountability and you've got a citizen who respects themselves, others, and the freedoms for which they've earned. Like voicing your opinion and the right to be offended.
Today's society somehow believes that the world "owes them something". No, it is you who owes the world. We're all here on borrowed time, so use it wisely. The other "societal norm" is the belief that everyone is special and is capable of anything. This is complete crap! There are many many activites, traits, skills, or otherwise useful abilities that each and everyone one of us is not capable of doing. GET OVER IT. The world can't be filled with child prodigy's, doctors, lawyers, engineers, politicians, astronauts, professional athletes, or "save the world" organizations. We still need carpenters, plumbers, electricians, garbage men, janitors, mail men, road crews, cashiers, and any other skilled or "unskilled labourers". There is nothing wrong with any of these jobs.
Kids today are constantly fed a steady diet of propaganda right from the word go. College or university is NOT for everyone. Nor is it required to be successful in life. Unfortunately today's influential people such as teachers, doctors, child care workers etc. Seem to press post secondary education like they have something invested in it. Today's youth have little choice but to swallow this crap and work themselves into a melt down because they cannot get into university X or that they might not have enough money to attend college Y.
This is where some guidance and support from the PARENTS plays a role. For starters, two individuals were required(atleast there should have been two individuals) to produce the child. That means two are required to raise the child. Two opinions are better than one. As children develop they need the experience and support of their parents(or other quality adults) to aid them in making adult decisions. Especially those decisions that are new to them. Its hard to be a parent when you're trying to be a full time employee and keep food on the table. The long hours and extra money do nothing for progressing the childs development. Hence why two parents are required to do the job right.
If society required its citizens to take some responsibility and accountability for their actions. Many of our current problems would go away. Having a little pride in what you do whether that be in your personal or professional life will benefit you as well as others. Having a little discipline in your life allows you the ability to appreciate what you have as well as what others have. Having a little shame just might prevent you from doing something stupid. Lets see an example of this.
Johnny works at Walmart after school(Johnny is 16 years old) for some extra money. Instead of doing his job and helping customers, Johnny decides to clown around with co-workers and chase the girls. After being stopped by a customer for some assistance, Johnny lies to the customer and directs them to another employee so he can continue hanging out with his co-workers.
After work(or whatever it is he did) Johnny is going to hang out with some friends. Johnny's friends pick him up at work in their car. They arrive with some alcohol that one of his friends stole from home. johhny decides to drink with his friends and have a good time.
Johnny and his friends are new to alcohol and are soon drunk. For fun they decide to smash some bus stops and urinate on vehicles. Johnny and company get arrested and charged with several offences.
Now this little story may seem lame. It in fact is a true account of a former high school classmate. With a little pride, Johnny would do his job properly and could very well get promoted or get a raise. With some discipline he would refuse to drink, or at the very least refuse to ride in a vehicle where the driver is drinking. With a little bit of shame, Johnny would not have gotten drunk and would not urinate or damage public property.
Of course, today this sounds like an average night out for many teenagers. These same teens get older but fail to mature. Instead of damaging public property they're stealing cars, or poppy donation boxes. Beating the elderly in home invasions for a few bucks. Stabbing some kid in the head with a pick axe over some comment(this just happened a few weeks ago here in Calgary). I'm sure you all can find some tragic story that involves a similar type of person.
The root problem is parenting. Everything else is simply a cheap convenient excuse. The real problems are far too complicated and difficult to repair. Society wants answers, so something or someone gets the blame. No one ever questions the validity of the source. Lip service is what people want because real issues and real solutions require people to think and get involved. Our society is fat dumb and happy. Why would they care??
The same goes for this bullying crap. Its tough for a kid to accept bullying or realize that they are not "retarded, a ###, stupid, a loser, a pussy" etc etc. when there's no one to help them understand that some people are mean and will prey on anyone they feel they can intimidate. Again, the bully themselves are usually from broken homes where no one has taken an interest in their lives. The cycle repeats itself and propagates its own kind.
Like any predator, the weak and the sick are the easiest prey to catch. People who give off the vibe that they are either of those two criteria are more likely to become a victim. Bullying is only successful when someone willingly becomes a victim. Showing any sign of strength, confidence, or pride is enough to thwart a potential attack.
The ability to display such traits is often hindered by what I call "a vaginized society" and their ultra sensitive beliefs. When I went to school this is how it worked. Some kid always had to prove he was the tough guy. The mouthy guy who was in charge and demanded respect. The other kids had nothing to prove and could care less what this clown did. Naturally there's going to be some people who just don't get along. A fight would ensue and someone would get a good beating and that was the end of it. No guns, no knives, no group of friends to meet them at a later date. Unfortunately, our society does not approve of fighting or any sort of violence. Instead you're supposed to become dependent on others. Such as teachers or police officers. Heaven forbid if a kid decides to fix the problem himself. Informing the school administration often leads to no positive result. Why? Because there's nothing the school can do to discipline the bully. Suspensions and/or expulsions are a rare action these days. Instead this vaginized society believes we should "listen to these troubled kids. Throw more money and prescription drugs at them." What we should be doing is holding them responsible for their actions, discipline them accordingly, then address the issue as to why they act the way they do. That would be called parenting. Something that should be done on a daily basis BY THE PARENTS.
By holding the child responsible for their actions you are also holding the parents responsible, and today, responsible is not the "in" thing. Its hard to change that belief when we have Parents not much older than their children, with no partner, they have no interest in their childs life and are happy they have an xbox or computer to baby sit/raise their child. Obviously discipline and pride weren't high priorities on the parents list. How could we expect anything different from their children? What started this circle of waste? Society's acceptance of less than productive, respectful, and responsible citizens. Add in a good helping of "you can do anything" and "its okay if you fail" and its not hard to see why society is the way it is today.
TDC
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I totally agree with you. Here is an interesting letter regarding this subject:
U.S. Department of Justice
Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness
Special Agent UREY W. PATRICK
FIREARMS TRAINING UNIT
FBI ACADEMY
QUANTICO, VIRGINIA
Shot placement is an important, and often cited, consideration regarding the suitability of weapons and ammunition. However, considerations of caliber are equally important and cannot be ignored. For example, a bullet through the central nervous system with any caliber of ammunition is likely to be immediately incapacitating. Even a .22 rimfire penetrating the brain will cause immediate incapacitation in most cases. Obviously, this does not mean the law enforcement agency should issue .22 rimfires and train for head shots as the primary target. The realities of shooting incidents prohibit such a solution.
Projectiles incapacitate by damaging or destroying the central nervous system, or by causing lethal blood loss. With the exceptions of hits to the brain or upper spinal cord, the concept of reliable and reproducible immediate incapacitation of the human target by gunshot wounds to the torso is a myth. The human target is a complex and durable one. A wide variety of psychological, physical, and physiological factors exist, all of them pertinent to the probability of incapacitation.
Physiologically, a determined adversary can be stopped reliably and immediately only by a shot that disrupts the brain or upper spinal cord. Failing a hit to the central nervous system, massive bleeding from holes in the heart or major blood vessels of the torso causing circulatory collapse is the only other way to force incapacitation upon an adversary, and this takes time. For example, there is sufficient oxygen within the brain to support full, voluntary action for 10-15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed.
A bullet simply cannot knock a man down. If it had the energy to do so, then equal energy would be applied against the shooter and he too would be knocked down. This is simple physics, and has been known for hundreds of years. The amount of energy deposited in the body by a bullet is approximately equivalent to being hit with a baseball. Tissue damage is the only physical link to incapacitation within the desired time frame, i.e., instantaneously.
Conclusions
Physiologically, no caliber or bullet is certain to incapacitate any individual unless the brain is hit. Psychologically, some individuals can be incapacitated by minor or small caliber wounds. Those individuals who are stimulated by fear, adrenaline, drugs, alcohol, and/or sheer will and survival determination may not be incapacitated even if mortally wounded.
The will to survive and to fight despite horrific damage to the body is commonplace on the battlefield, and on the street. Barring a hit to the brain, the only way to force incapacitation is to cause sufficient blood loss that the subject can no longer function, and that takes time. Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.
Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/849728/posts
http://www.internetarmory.com/handgunammo.htm
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think about this....theres only one door in alot of classrooms so if hes standing in the door with some spare charged mags how hard would it be to hit 8 people?
also who says you have to hit an organ? what about the leg? i know your thinking its only the leg your not going to die but theres a major artery runing through it the femoral(sp?) artery that if hit can bleed out in a matter of minutes.
really how long does it take to bleed out? and how much damage has to be done to get to that point?
if you doubt the power of a .22LR try shooting an orange or other fruit thats similar to the bodys make-up. and see for your self what kind of damage this little cartridge can do.
well... this is Canada... not really practical to have a pistol for self defence
(takes too long to get it out of case, un-trigger locked, loaded, etc)
but... if the SHTF (to steal from another thread) you can carry one ####load of ammo pretty easily in .22
(see the six months in the woods "what gun" thread)
(takes too long to get it out of case, un-trigger locked, loaded, etc)
but... if the SHTF (to steal from another thread) you can carry one ####load of ammo pretty easily in .22
(see the six months in the woods "what gun" thread)
Put armed guards in our schools. If banks can guard our money, i believe someone should guard our most 'precious' resource. As most of these kids have let their intentions be known before they have entered the school(like in the parking lot or what not) an armed barrier between them and the classroom should atleast slow them down. If anything it gives someone a job.
TightGroup
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Saint-Louis-de-Kent, NB
lone-wolf, armed guards is not the answer, armed citizens is !
I would say that these school shout outs would not be occuring, if the perp knew some of his buds would be able to defend themselves..
I would say that these school shout outs would not be occuring, if the perp knew some of his buds would be able to defend themselves..
Teachers should be trained in self-defense too. Hell, every student should be, it's exercise atleast.
Students used to be taught to hide under desks for a Nuclear bomb! But a kid with a gun, nothing... but you'd have more chance against him then a nuke.
Students used to be taught to hide under desks for a Nuclear bomb! But a kid with a gun, nothing... but you'd have more chance against him then a nuke.
I think we've all been there.
About self-defence: while we've certainly demonstrated in this thread that a well-placed .22 could fell two-legged aggressors, the question(s) may be:
(1) Just how good is your shot-placement, esp. under stress:
(i) Can you make that crucial shot under the stress of an oncoming aggressor, and
(ii) Would you want to make a head-shot (if possible) and bring on the aggressor's demise, knowing that a wounding shot (if possible) with a .22 might not faze the adversary?
(2) How fast could you ready (unwrap & unlock) and load your .22 in the event of an emergency?
Just food for thought. By the way, a shotgun would possibly answer the "speed of readying & loading" and maybe/possibly the wounding issue (which I really hate to discuss - if you need to shoot like you mean it, you really ought to do so, but)...
very recently I have seen deer killed by 22 target round, standard velocity and round nose bullet. Deer died within 10 yards. Shot was placed from about 50 yards I believe, into "boiler room". Bullet penetrated fir, skin, ribcage, lung, heart and stopped inside next lung. Heart completely desintegrated by bullet impact, say the whole side of boiler room was nothing more than a bloody mess. Now, imagine what higher velocity hollow point will do. Not to mention hypervelocity. So, I suggest we all acknowledge that 22 is a firearm just like everything else.
If I were a bad guy my weapon if choice would be a .22LR; fairly quite, easy to shot, easy to silance...
I fear that one day a real bad guy will realize this and do some serious damage. Then our rimfire fun will be over with
