223, 223 Ai, 22-250 or 22 creedmoor??

So... I've been out testing 223 loads this weekend.

First I'll start by saying that a Hornady 88 grain ELD Match jams the lands hard in my rifle with an OAL of 2.638", so the throat is generous. The current max mag length is 2.6 so I'd need to modify to run any longer. 26 inch 1:7 barrel.

With the long throat I've wondered if I might encounter accuracy issues feeding from a magazine with light bullets (like Hornady 75 ELD) instead of hand feeding one by one. I wonder if concentric bullets not seated well into the neck may get repositioned feeding out of a mag where the tip of the bullet drives into the feed ramp in front of the mag. This remains to be proven one way or the other and the possibility remains that even if the bullet does get repositioned, perhaps the free bore will straighten it out again anyway going into the throat.

I did some initial ladder testing with the 88 ELDs (G1 BC .545) seated to 2.600" OAL and hit 2850 FPS with Varget, but primers were real flat... Going to test other powders to see if I can reduce pressures and still get that kind of speed.

Entire bearing surface of 88s is in full contact with the neck at 2.638 OAL BTW.... So possibly a little longer throat yet could help boost speeds.

I did also ladder test some 77 SMKs and hit 3105 FPS with 8208 XBR... again... real hot load. Not something I'd trust on a hot day.

I ran Alliant 2000-MR up to 27.0 grains with 77 SMKs and got 2880 FPS with no pressure... so need to try that powder again with more than 27 grains.

Accuracy with the 88s was around 1/2 MOA at 100 yards in quite breezy conditions and best of the day was with 80 SMKs at 0.220" and 0.398" five round groups. Unfortunately the 80 SMKs don't have a BC to compete with the Hornady's at extended range.

Crunching some numbers... if I could hit 2900 FPS with 88s, that would compete ballistically side by side with a 6MM, but with less recoil. Even falling short of that, it's in the ball park.
 
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A quick review of past shooter equip results in LR shooting show that bullets with less than optimal BC numbers still hit the target as good or better than some bullets with higher BC.

Regardless, shoot what your gun likes, don't get hung up on numbers. Targets speak for themselves. I personally have 3 rifles that won't shoot Bergers VLD/Hybrids near as good as a SMK/TMK to 1000yds.
 
Maple57 said:
I too have Accurate Mags for 223, but I modified them to feed a full 2.6" OAL.

Remove the lip in the front of the insert with a Dremel tool or file, which you probably already did, if you're getting 2.5"

Further length can be obtained by filling the void between the ribs at the back of the mag inserts with JB weld. After that cures, you can mill away all or most of the inboard rib.

To mill the back rib, I just chucked a 1/4" end mill in my drill press and clamped a board as a guide to control the depth of cut. Easy peasey.
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Any chance you could post a picture of your magazines? Thanks!
 
chrismc said:
A quick review of past shooter equip results in LR shooting show that bullets with less than optimal BC numbers still hit the target as good or better than some bullets with higher BC.

Regardless, shoot what your gun likes, don't get hung up on numbers. Targets speak for themselves. I personally have 3 rifles that won't shoot Bergers VLD/Hybrids near as good as a SMK/TMK to 1000yds.
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I can appreciate your point for deliberate shooting like F Class where you get shot to shot feedback, but not so much in PRS where you've got to move fast and often with no feedback.

Especially once you get considering the BC on the 88s... 0.545 G1... you cannot ignore that kind of potential if you can get it to shoot straight and get good speed, and the only way to do that with a 223 is with a long seating depth.

I was getting 1/2 MOA groups with them at 100 yards running at 2820ish FPS and I'm sure I can get to 2900 or more with 8208 XBR... that puts it a minute flatter at 1000 than a 75 ELD at 3000 FPS and more than an MOA better wind.

Admittedly the 80 SMK was more accurate at under 1/4 MOA, but you cannot compare the BC.
 
You can’t fit those 88’s in a 223 magazine at that long over all length can you? 2900 FPS with 88’s in 223 rem would be superb already! My chamber is not deep enough for that.
 
Mystic Precision said:
Did the weight cap for the 223 in PRS Tactical get lifted?

Or is it still 77gr max?

Jerry
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Doubt it's changed.

That division is meant for LE/MIL to compete with their department gear, or rifles close to it. Not for hot rodding .22's.

But if someone wants to shoot hot rodded .22's, such as the 88 ELDM's at a good clip, I'm not sure why they would care if it fits within the confines of the tactical division. It's certainly not the spirit of it.
 
Mike112288 said:
You can’t fit those 88’s in a 223 magazine at that long over all length can you? 2900 FPS with 88’s in 223 rem would be superb already! My chamber is not deep enough for that.
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I'll post a video showing what I'm up to, maybe tonight if I have the time.

For the record, I don't care about adhering to PRS Tactical Division restrictions because they group everyone into one list for prizes anyway... so (unless you actually think you can win the division) might just as well shoot open division. Besides that... if you are good enough to win Tactical Division then you may well be good enough to win Open Division, so maybe just shoot Open Division.

Short story is that my throat was set to jam the lands hard using 88 grain Hornady ELDs with an OAL of 2.638"

I've been using Accurate Mags for 223 but I have modified them to feed 2.600" long rounds, but I can increase that a lot more if I want to.

The rifle is shooting 1/2 MOA with 88s in the 2800-2840 FPS range with Varget, but I'll be testing other powders and fully expect to hit 2900 FPS with safe pressures using 8208. BTW my ES was 11 FPS

88s at 2900 FPS gets me to 27.5 MOA drop out to 1000 yards with 6.6 MOA wind for a 10 MPH cross wind... According to GeoBallistics anyway... and that on paper is very similar to what 6BR shooters and 6 Dasher shooters are often using.

So configured this way, the 223 has less recoil and should closely chase the slower 6 mms.

Certainly low recoil is an advantage for PRS so I'm looking to take advantage of that, even if there's a slight ballistics disadvantage.
 
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Hey Thanks for that! Wonder if I can do that without the tools you have there for it. Maybe I could file it down slowly? Those rounds look super long by the way. No wonder guys are able to get those speeds with the long heavies
 
I suppose but it would be pretty hard with a file. Maybe a Dremel tool first and then smooth it with a file later.

You could even use a table saw.

You can order a small end mill from ebay or something. You must know someone with a drill press don't you?

Here's a link to 5 end mills for 6 bucks.

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/5-Pcs-1-4-Inch-20mm-Carbide-Spiral-Bit-End-Mill-Cutter-Set-CNC-4-Flute-Router/193073575206?hash=item2cf414f526&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&enc=AQAEAAADMKvsXIZtBqdkfsZsMtzFbFsbX3WcW5fmB%2Fx7ZbaZTyex%2FsMGvHU%2FboviiGaLF1wL0uqW6AGjYYKFbf10WPpG6yIY9hsIO2%2F9VOCUU1vGKGn5wXY26ew1Oaw8Zp1vY%2BWrKnRRbnjCe%2BlducuTtaUkoGlCW%2Fe0wXRfDZ%2FNP7kmYYa%2FOixneOaIXBYUWRcvwzupNuqLV1ieyXLidHqek5yneJ24Q5ALBL3LGqJyXlM6OXUgOYULi7U6w2p7NqbaUzRwDNmmpbP3IUpzj7mv7Ko%2FvTIWL7LkAnWWWBGIdnXlimws9gZaT%2FvVJfV94gGLhohdy%2F3BgrVa8EllPrUDNy9QsgM%2FQTvM5ukC8%2BA1Pw6jepz%2FjA5FTxKzJngLVHJoIrR0FwWbTJniXLLLmleZr3Hnhh%2F4ldoRhcvq1vJmkzuQZxvGP5fG3vT0hVp9s6bB15Qt65srED9lnuY4vUCVeRzIrk7LsNZz5MmTNUA0u52tlkNi0G%2B17dgoIBLyfUitSFv2J6vzWR5Hbd3DcqJTVcSvrvoyVALZLYz9mx%2FHj9y1gn0ZQ73PyHqgPnvR0QrGKPfB4TIktCq%2Fkuoy%2Fo10nl8iuG8iOcRidbG8DTH5ZIDu5LufH9H7abu1i4qOGT%2BOe1uCRZ4EtS%2BTVqS9pYLXS03VnCqmha09Zpkl69OXE7xb5v9h%2FnMYdw4VqYu6GlEcArSKHDpTHUf%2Btf0fr%2BiUctYu81Y0tYBOaZCQ0Mwo2UXS4mP6uXkNqgo1Uq95%2FKd%2BzNgnEzbNBS84gAG0y3bvE9HyoFd20F7GD2lRy6BCH%2FgtK%2FkLPwJI3oYWCNf8j7aFHK%2F6lYV5BHU6s3%2F2oR3DPwPb7YwA6NQRmgDeBYauyBSr3ud3XuK58b6%2FO5SPtzbYZ6eKCUjb7%2BOUdg5YvwvlWkVpaH%2BGo9cJDJXZxeYyjFJ13sq5dXBze4vD2o62jHRqEsO5LFaqzQKLL6T361NivNi0v58%2BkIGPNjjWjqI1ZQBrI4rhdnDVSsW%2Fxp5hgQ37JCTOhPnEJ3PXUTYZ15GlnhLFXfd3dWmT3dZbJEG%2BRf4WtAYrFJU3MybDv7BeS3y%2FykdmPg%3D%3D&checksum=193073575206c21dbe2eb332420f924d88a0e2dd9d04
 
I favor the .223 in a 75 bthp. They are just shy of 3000fps and won't burn your barrel. 75gr have more trajectory but move 1/3 across compared to the standard 55gr. on a windy day. I like the 22-250 but rounds cost more and I have to buy a new barrel every six or eight years because they scream downrange.
 
I like my 223’s as well. Never had a 22-250 though. I’d like the 22-250 for the 75 grainers and 88 grainers to give them more speed but keep it on the milder side to increase barrel life
A bit
 
The thing is that speed is a short range solution and BC is the long range solution.

Sure with a 22-250 you can push them faster, but how much faster. You have almost twice the powder charge but don't really gain all that much speed. That's partially because of slower less efficient powder and also the basic laws of exponential energy required to increase speed.

One of the reasons the humble 6BR has such a following is the small case means faster more efficient and cleaner burning powder and get surprising speeds out of a tiny case. I like to think of the 223 in a similar way. It's just really efficient.

To be honest I'd like to see an Ackley improved version (or something thereabouts) of the 223 adopted as more common place in the shooting community. I think that would be a 223 sweet spot. Mainly for better brass behavior (for reloading) and better internal ballistics (lower ES) and less so (but not to be disregarded) for the increased velocity.
 
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There's a few people shooting .223AI in PRS comps, people have been shooting them for 5+ years in that discipline and doing well with it.

Here's a thread of people using that cartridge and sharing their loads and success: http://forum.snipershide.com/threads/223-ackley-improved.6364566/

The .223AI is a great cartridge. It has the same limitations as all the other centerfire .22 cartridges, but a great choice if you want to stick with .22.
 
If you going to go through the work on extending a mag, then go all the way to 2.75/2.80". At which point, a 224-204Ruger makes a whole lot of sense (yeah, I know there is already a factory chambering "like" it but wildcats of a wildcat of a factory rd sounds much cooler)

Significantly more powder... already 30deg shoulder... brass is easy to get and reasonably priced... dies are simple

Long skinny case would make feeding simplier/easier then a short fat case. Think of it as a magnum 223 Rem or a gentler 22 BR...

All sorts of good fun...

Jerry
 
Mystic Precision said:
If you going to go through the work on extending a mag, then go all the way to 2.75/2.80". At which point, a 224-204Ruger makes a whole lot of sense (yeah, I know there is already a factory chambering "like" it but wildcats of a wildcat of a factory rd sounds much cooler)

Significantly more powder... already 30deg shoulder... brass is easy to get and reasonably priced... dies are simple

Long skinny case would make feeding simplier/easier then a short fat case. Think of it as a magnum 223 Rem or a gentler 22 BR...

All sorts of good fun...

Jerry
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All good options depending on what you want to use as the base case... meaning brass.

With the widespread popularity of 223 including once fired military brass, the 223 AI has the convenience edge going for it.

On the negative side is the basic need for fire forming AI.

Like I said earlier... it would be nice if demand was more widespread. Consider how the 6 Dasher had to be fire formed and now due to popular demand we can buy new brass for the Dasher.
 
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