Im old an have hunted a looong time. The biggest bodied whitetail Ive ever killed was shot with a heavy barreled Rem 700V blued in a fully bedded wood stock with a trigger job. I used Imr 4895 and CCI BR2 primers with a Sierra 55 BTHP Gameking #1390 if memory serves. It was shot at 135yards from a treestand behind the front shoulder. I was hunting on my buddies farm and three of us convened to gut and transport the deer back to the barn to hang. Neither of them were aware of what rifle I was using and they both thought I was using a big long action gun like 300 or 30-06. When I told them it was a handloaded 22-250, both of them were completely bewildered. That deer dropped dead were i pulled the trigger. Im not a believer in shooting animals thru the shoulder, knowing full well the waste thats going to occur. We owe all game a quick clean kill with the least waste. Just how I look at hunting game.
.223 for everything, the gunnutz version
- Thread starter CamV
- Start date
If the shooter can hit 4” at the range he is shooting, then maybe it’s enough cartridge. Most can’t do better than that offhand at 100. Minimum energy can cause lost game with less than stellar shooting. Many guys at the range say there is no wind drift at 100 so how do they read at 400? Still of the school of use enough gun.
Licensed to kill
CGN Regular
- Location
- Peace Country Alberta
With the possible exception of big bears, TRYING to hit the shoulder is not, and for the reasons you state, should not be the goal of any ethical hunter. However, the best hunter’s and best shots I know have ALL hit an animal in the shoulder when aiming for behind the shoulder. The “quick clean kills” is exactly why .22 cal bullets are not preferred by ethical hunters and in fact is illegal for big game in some jurisdictions. True that bullet construction has improved over the years but brute force like that that comes with bigger, heavier bullets is often what is required to break bones. Even a rib could deflect or otherwise stop the bullet from hitting vitals and, naturally, the heavier the bullet the less affect something like a rib would have on its trajectory and/or ability to hold together.
This thread will just end with members arguing until a few get heated enough to start personally attacking each other for their views. I only used that gun for one deer and moved to slightly heavier bullets that are fast. Weatherby in 257 is my preferred choice now or 6 BR/Creed. Im predicting a moderator intervening.
"minimum energy" is highly bullet dependent though. What is the minimum for one will not be for another.
A heavy 223 bullet that expands/fragments but still punches deep is going to create more damage than a tough, bonded 30 cal, even though it definitely has less energy. As long as its going fast enough to do that.
Put them both at 1900 fps and its even more night and day
I know what you mean A J, just sayin, its all relative.
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Last year the 223AI and 223 were the only chamberings I carried. The 77 TMK and 88 ELD m were the only bullets I used.
Elk and moose are the bulk of the red meat consumed in my house. Suffice to say that they are an important part of my grocery bill every year.
We get a pair of two day moose “seasons” here now - spike/fork, or tripalm, or ten points only. Not the easiest thing to come by, with 40 total hours of huntable time. 3 years in a row I fielded a 223AI with 88 ELD m’s. 3 bulls in a row. 3 years in a row with major bones and supporting structures broken and bulls immediately down and dead.
This year, for elk, I’ll carry a 22 Creedmoor Montana that is almost done being built.
But I’ll carry the 223AI for moose again.
To be clear, I think people should use whatever they are most comfortable with, that brings them some personal satisfaction.
I’m not telling anyone they should run out and buy a new rifle to hunt with in any chambering, for any reason. Use whatever works for you.
In a traditional “big game cartridge” it’s harder to get bullet choice wrong buying ammo off the shelf. Most anything will work from a 30.06 most of the time. But you pay a price in increased cost/noise/muzzle blast/recoil. And very few people know what their impact velocity will be once it’s past the muzzle, and even fewer know what to actually expect from the bullet they have chosen. Impact velocity is the important variable, because it drives bullet expansion characteristics.
It’s pretty easy to pick out the guys in threads like these who fall into that category, as they typically are talking ethics or morals and fixate on chambering, but don’t mention any particular bullet, other than possibly a weight. If a guy isn’t talking specific bullets and showing an understanding of minimum requirements for impact velocity for that bullet, then he is out of his depth when it comes to talking about terminal effects of the smaller cartridges.
The one thing that has been abundantly clear on multiple forums though, is the guys who are loudest and most against it, are typically guys who are most closed off to the idea and won’t think about it rationally.
I used to be one of those guys. 20-ish years ago I remember going off on Bartell for shooting a mulie buck with a 40 gr BT (I think) from a 22-250 (I think) on the old Predator Masters forum. He likely doesn’t even remember that, as my rant would’ve been lost in the noise of all the other rants.
Long way of saying, if you make good choices around twist rates and bullet choices and operate within appropriate velocity parameters, you don’t give up much of anything in performance.
While this is about the 223, Deer drop like they were hit by Lightning with the 22-250.
The most lead I've ever seen an animal take was a late season Muley Buck that a Guy was using a 300 Win Mag on.
Poor shooting is poor shooting.
The 22LR was banned for Big Game in BC as a Roadblock to those of lower Economic Status, not because it was ineffective, other Jurisdictions may be the same. Anyone that thinks the 223 is not a fine Deer Cartridge needs to get out more.
The most lead I've ever seen an animal take was a late season Muley Buck that a Guy was using a 300 Win Mag on.
Poor shooting is poor shooting.
The 22LR was banned for Big Game in BC as a Roadblock to those of lower Economic Status, not because it was ineffective, other Jurisdictions may be the same. Anyone that thinks the 223 is not a fine Deer Cartridge needs to get out more.
Here’s the thing…. Caliber doesn’t denote how fast a given bullet will kill something. Bullet construction and shape have a much larger impact than weight or caliber.
FYI, the majority of states and provinces that allow bottle neck cartridges to be used for big game allow the use of 22 centerfires.
This thread will just end with members arguing until a few get heated enough to start personally attacking each other for their views. I only used that gun for one deer and moved to slightly heavier bullets that are fast. Weatherby in 257 is my preferred choice now or 6 BR/Creed. Im predicting a moderator intervening.
Not sure what you are asking?
I have 223’s with 1:7 and 1:8 twist, have/had 223AI in 1:12, 1:9, and 1:7.
22 cm on the way with 1:7.
If I could only have one twist rate in a 22 centerfire it would be 1:7.
My feeling is that increased rotational speed increases wound cavity diameter as the bullet sheds fragments, but also increases penetration and straight line tracking (similar to touching a slowly revolving drill bit against something, versus touching a fast rotating bit that pulls itself through). I don’t really have anything to base that on other than observations of bullet path and tissue/bone damage though - and that is only sampled from two bullets and one chambering, albeit that has been multiple moose, multiple bears, multiple deer, multiple coyotes and an elk.
YMMV.
I have 223’s with 1:7 and 1:8 twist, have/had 223AI in 1:12, 1:9, and 1:7.
22 cm on the way with 1:7.
If I could only have one twist rate in a 22 centerfire it would be 1:7.
My feeling is that increased rotational speed increases wound cavity diameter as the bullet sheds fragments, but also increases penetration and straight line tracking (similar to touching a slowly revolving drill bit against something, versus touching a fast rotating bit that pulls itself through). I don’t really have anything to base that on other than observations of bullet path and tissue/bone damage though - and that is only sampled from two bullets and one chambering, albeit that has been multiple moose, multiple bears, multiple deer, multiple coyotes and an elk.
YMMV.
AH, I mean if you could either have a 223 Rem with a 1-7 or a 223AI with a 1-8, which one would you go with? Is the twist rate the biggest determining factor on the wounds created by the heavies?
I have never shot them out of anything but a 1-8 but many of you guys have told me the 1-7 is a big part of the wounding mechanism.
What velocity do you get with the 223AI and 88s?
I had one built by IBI on a 1975 Rem 700 action when my Kimber was getting close to needing a new barrel. Didn’t want to be without a 223AI while it was getting done.
That one showed up in October, so made an educated guess on a load and loaded up 5 rounds. Those landed in a little cluster so called it good enough for the season and rolled up 50 rounds. Those ones ended up doing 2740fps. Best buddy watched that rifle smash an immature moose and a big black bear, and he shot a couple coyotes with it and decided he needed one that winter.
Had one spun up for him by IBI as well, and his showed up and due to time constraints I went with the same load in his, his does 2780fps.
My kimber came back, and that one has a KS Arms tube, done by Corlanes. Just enough difference in the chamber that brass sized for the kimber is very difficult to close on in either 700.
However, same load in that one gets 2612fps.
Not leaning on it and no actual load work up, just picked a load and ran with it. All three are an inch or better for 10 rounds at 100 so good enough for what we do with them - kill stuff and shoot for beer can braggin’ rights at 6-7-800+ yards.
At 2700fps that gets you to about 600 yards maintaining a 1800fps impact velocity.
The question that arises is how much meat are you willing to sacrifice, how much fragment is ok in your meat?
My moose last fall was shot with a 30-06 178gn ELD-X at 280m, the moose went down immediately, but was a mess of fragments in the meat( we even found a piece of lead in the hind quarter). It was a small moose!
I shot an other moose at 106m, frontal shot with a 9.3 partition and that moose went down so quick I couldn’t believe it and basically no meat loss!
I like stronger bullets! I use to use mono lots and usually had great results other than once!
Shot a moose with a 8x57, 200gn nosler accubond at about 100m moose died within 10-15m bullet pass through so not recover bro king ribs on the way I and out! Really little meat lost!
I can not imagine hitting a bone with a 223 or even a 30-06 with ELD-M or even ELD-X and recovering a moose!
My moose last fall was shot with a 30-06 178gn ELD-X at 280m, the moose went down immediately, but was a mess of fragments in the meat( we even found a piece of lead in the hind quarter). It was a small moose!
I shot an other moose at 106m, frontal shot with a 9.3 partition and that moose went down so quick I couldn’t believe it and basically no meat loss!
I like stronger bullets! I use to use mono lots and usually had great results other than once!
Shot a moose with a 8x57, 200gn nosler accubond at about 100m moose died within 10-15m bullet pass through so not recover bro king ribs on the way I and out! Really little meat lost!
I can not imagine hitting a bone with a 223 or even a 30-06 with ELD-M or even ELD-X and recovering a moose!
I shoot eld-x pretty often and never had fragmentation, just a big exit hole but minimal meat loss as long as I take a good shot. And they are soft so can't hit a big bone, reason why some people shoot Eldm's. Not sure what the rules are when it comes to wound channel pictures.
I do like copper solids, and will try some cayugas once my 223 wylde is done. Ran them in a 22creed, and they did well.
Licensed to kill
CGN Regular
- Location
- Peace Country Alberta
A good example of why it is so important to pick the right bullet construction for your intended purpose. My brother, who has used partitions in his .300 for 40 years decided to try ELDX’s since his son-in-law and his friends were going on and on about how wonderful it was. He shot an elk with one and the elk ran away. The bullet exploded on impact and did not penetrate hardly at all. Reason?????, the bullet is too thin skinned for his situation. He shoots most game at <100 yards, way too close for the velocity at that range for the construction to perform as intended. All those that were claiming hiw wonderful the ELDX was are shooting most animals at >300yatds.
