.223 & H335 questions

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Goosehunter82

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Hi,

Just starting to get into hand loading with a lee classic loaders. Using Hodgdon website for my load data and a scale to confirm everything but I thought I would run my loads past the pros before going to the range next week.

45gr Sierra varminter + 24.2 gr H335 - COAL 5.58cm

50gr Barnes varmint grenades + 22.5 gr H335 - COAL 5.58cm

CCI 400 small rifle primers in both.

Shooting them in a 24" HB H&R rifle.

Thanks very much, would love to know I'm not going to blow my face off or wreck my rifle. :D
 
With all due respect you should invest in a reloading manual. It will give you a starting load and maximum load not to exceed that you can work up to. Asking advice on a forum is good and all but if you fear for your safety, use a published resource.
 
X2, you need a manual. There's so much going on that you will feel better about knowing than lucky you didn't make a mistake. I couldn't type in several hours what you can buy for $20-50 and what I could type is a fraction of the knowledge in those books.
 
just to give you an idea of my H335 load
24.5 gr H335
55gr. projectile- Hornady,Frontier
primer- cci 450 ( magnum) recommended for AR type and ball powders, to minimize slam fires,AR's have the floating firing pin, but you can also use the regualr smaal rifle primers
OAL- 2.244
 
I use H335 under 69gr sierras, 53gr vmax and 40gr vmax with winchester brass and and cci 400 primers (am going to try the cci 450's like ffgats mentioned). Your load mentioned would be safe to fire in my rifle, but always start low and work up. And of course all rifles are different...
 
Manuals - Hornady, Speer, Lyman. And ABC's of reloading.

The CCI 450 (Small Rifle magnum) is important to use in the 223 when using ball powder like H335. Ball powder is harder to ignite. I use this powder and 55 gr bullets in competition.

When I started loading this powder I used a standard primer. I would get about 1:100 fail to fire. The primer would fire and create enough pressure to pop the bullet out of the case and stick it in the barrel. A disaster when shooting against the clock.

I switched to the CCI450 and added a crimp into the crimping groove and I now get 100% ignition.
 
Goosehunter82

As stated above you NEED reloading manuals, and when you get the manuals you need to READ the front part of the manuals to gain information.

You then should start with the suggested starting load and work up, I would load 5 cases each increasing your load a half grain at a time until you start nearing maximum and then only increase your load .2 due to the smaller capacity of the .223 case.

When you start at the bottom and work up you examine each fired case for signs of pressure, learn to read the case and primers for signs of pressure. The manuals are guide lines and each rifle and the reloading components you use will cause the chamber pressure to vary.

Below is the same load of 25 grains of H335 and a Hornady 55 grain FMJ bullet fired in cases with different cases capacities. The low pressure chart is our American military Lake City Army Ammunition Plant cases with the most internal capacity at 30.6 grains of H2O. The higher pressure are from cases with a internal capacity of 28.8 grains of H20, there is 6,000 psi difference in chamber pressure between these two type cases. This is also "WHY" you start low and work up until you know more about reloading and get to know your firearms.

Below the Lake City case with 30.6 grains of capacity.

308_zpsf81bb4cc.jpg


Below this case has 28.8 grains of case capacity and the chamber pressure is 6,000 psi higher than the Lake City case.

288_zps26698a67.jpg


What these two Quickload charts tell me is with 25 grains of H335 and a 55 grain bullet using mixed brass fired in my AR15 rifles is that the Highest pressure is still 5,000 psi below max. This would be short range practice/blasting ammo for under 100 yards, for accuracy loads you would want to use the same type and lot brass for case uniformity.

Again start low and work up your loads and learn the read your primers and brass for signs of pressure.................know thy rifle.

Changing any component can and will change your chamber pressure as the primers show below.

5Remington75_zps2b532d7c.jpg


3CCIBR4_zpsa43a3c3a.jpg


I'm retired and have been reloading for over 46 years, and every year I pick up at least one of my manuals and read ALL the information in the front of the manual. This keeps everything fresh in your mind and replaces any information that may have leaked out of your ears. ;)
 
Buy the Lyman manual. It has more loads using more powders and bullet weights than any bullet or powder makers book.
You work those loads up or just pick 'em? Hodgdon's site will give you what is in their manual. Like Ganderite says those are light(just over minimum) loads that may or may not shoot well out of your rifle. They're certainly safe but you need to work up the load to get the best accuracy.
Hodgdon says nothing about using magnum primers with H335. You only need 'em(not the same as opting to use 'em) if the manual says to.
No CM's in Reloadingland either. No manual from any American company uses metric anything but bullet diameters, sometimes.
 
I'm so glad I decided to post here, thanks for all the guidance! I've got two reloading manuals on order off amazon and will probably hold off loading anymore until they get here and I can review them. I'm excited to see the effect on my accuracy with my own loads. I'll post some pics of the results once I get the books and my confidence up.
 
Great Crouton said:
I've fired a little over 1000 hand-loaded rounds using H335 and a regular primer and never had a failure to ignite the powder.
Click to expand...

A fail to fire might be no big deal... or it could be a disaster. And if you don't have a cleaning rod to poke the bullet out of the barrel, an even bigger disaster.

The purpose of this forum is to learn by the experience of others.

If you use H335 with standard primers, and have no problems, you are probably using heavy bullets, a very strong firing pin spring or a good crimp. (Or using the Winchester primer, which is a hot primer designed to ignite ball powders.)

If you are getting 100% ignition, you are probably skirting with a fail to fire. If you load for competition or hunting, I suggest you stack the odds in your favour and switch to a magnum primer, or at least the Winchester.

I understand your comfort from no problems with 1000 rounds. For some of us, that it a slow weekend of shooting. I would not draw much comfort from such a small sample.

In one of my tests, a 8x57 loaded with 150 gr bullets at a Start load, the standard primer gave me a click-bang most of the time. A magnum primer is really important when you worsen the odds with a lighter bullet or a less than full case.
 
Not to be argumentative with you Ganderite, but I've been using W748 (a ball powder) for over 4 years now in both my AR and my Norc M14 along with small and large CCI primers respectively. Have never had a failure to fire at all.

Am I just lucky?
 
Maybe it's a generational thing, but it's always astonishing to hear from new reloaders who will actually start cranking out handloads without the benefit of a reloading manual. I suppose there is an instinctive inclination to use the internet as a quick font of info, rather than looking at a hard copy source where there is some known quality line. I started playing with computers back in 1968 and the old saying, garbage in equals garbage out, still applies. Nothing personal here, just an observation.
I habitually used magnum primers with ball powders in the .223 until the great primers scarcity of 20 yrs ago when they just weren't available. I was fortunate to find a trove of several thousand Rem 7.5 primers, so started to use them with all of W748, Blc2, H335, and X2924 ball powders and continue to do so. After a lot of rounds at the range and in the gopher fields I have never had a problem with them.
 
Melnibonean said:
Not to be argumentative with you Ganderite, but I've been using W748 (a ball powder) for over 4 years now in both my AR and my Norc M14 along with small and large CCI primers respectively. Have never had a failure to fire at all.

Am I just lucky?
Click to expand...

Luck has nothing to do with it. You are just closer to non-ignition than I am. It is a question of how important the Bang! is to you.

When it does not fire you get a bullet stuck in the throat/barrel. In a match or on a hunt, this is a disaster. At the gravel pit, no big deal.

If you want to improve the odds in your favour, load your ball ammo with a magnum primer.

I have loads that get at least 1:100 non ignition if i don't use the magnum primer. But they are mild loads. If the case is full of powder, the primer pressure is higher and ignition improves a lot. If I crimp and use the hot primer, misfires so far are zero. Based on 6,000 rounds of that load.
 
Ganderite said:
A fail to fire might be no big deal... or it could be a disaster. And if you don't have a cleaning rod to poke the bullet out of the barrel, an even bigger disaster.

The purpose of this forum is to learn by the experience of others.

If you use H335 with standard primers, and have no problems, you are probably using heavy bullets, a very strong firing pin spring or a good crimp. (Or using the Winchester primer, which is a hot primer designed to ignite ball powders.)

If you are getting 100% ignition, you are probably skirting with a fail to fire. If you load for competition or hunting, I suggest you stack the odds in your favour and switch to a magnum primer, or at least the Winchester.

I understand your comfort from no problems with 1000 rounds. For some of us, that it a slow weekend of shooting. I would not draw much comfort from such a small sample.

In one of my tests, a 8x57 loaded with 150 gr bullets at a Start load, the standard primer gave me a click-bang most of the time. A magnum primer is really important when you worsen the odds with a lighter bullet or a less than full case.
Click to expand...


By no means was I trying to pass off my experience as Gospel. That's just been my experience so far. But using your ratio I should have at least 10 failures to ignite by now and I have had none. This is a 55gr bullet, no idea how strong my firing pin spring is but I do apply a crimp. And I use just standard SRP from CCI. Case is approx 85-90% full.

All that being said, I only went this way based on info from my manuals. You clearly have more experience than I and if you feel I would benefit from using a magnum primer with H335, Ill certainly take that under advisement.

Are milspec CCI primers any hotter? If I have to tweak my loads based on a new primer, maybe I should look at one that is designed for use with a free floating firing pin too?
 
I don't know if the milspec primer is hotter than the standard.

The "benefit" of the hotter primer is better odds it will fire. For a gravel pit shooter, not a big deal.

I was shooting timed matches and the duds cost me big time. Took awhile to get the stuck bullet out of the throat.

A full case and a crimp helps ignition. I was only using 17 gr in the 223 case.
 
Just want to add a something, I know the OP is loading not for an AR type, so this might be irrelevant to him.
Aside from ball powder/ magnum primers issue, it is also advisable to use magnum primers for AR to minimize the risk of SLAM FIRES., In fact CCI#41 is designed primarily for ARs because of its thickier cup. Since its almost impossible to the #41 here, then the 450 is the thing Im using. or you can go for the Remg.7 1/2 again if you can get one.
 
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