223 high velocity standard charges...wtf?

[krprice84]

So yes, I'm relatively new to reloading, and this is my first rifle to reload for that is a bottleneck cartridge. Having said that, I believe I have a good grasp on the idea behind reloading and on the principles. Physics is my thing and I've done hours upon hours of research (not just reading what mall ninja's have to say) on this stuff.

I made up a number of rounds for my new gun, which is a Remington 700 xcr long range tactical, chambered in 223. I made them up starting at half a grain above starting charge and went up (for the first outing ti the range) in half grain increments until I got to max load. For this time, bullets were seated to book dimensions (though this next time I plan on setting then up at about 5 thou from the lands, unless someone suggests otherwise and has good reason for it).

Well, what happened (with both types of powder I was working with, which is h335 and h4895) is that I got max velocity on the chrono before max charge. There were absolutely zero pressure signs even at max load. I started off with just throwing then at paper because the battery in my chrono was dead, so while I waiting for others to show up with a battery, I shot a few rounds off. They seemed to shoot fine, and since I'm not highly skilled, I couldn't really say for sure yet what my most accurate load was. I'm planning on doing a ladder series test tomorrow to determine where the best node is.

With the h335, I found that I hit over 3150 fps with speed 62 grain fmjbt bullets at around 24 grains of powder (max charge listed on my book was 25 grains, for a similar bullet, which yes, I understand will provide different results than another bullet). Since these bullets are not exactly the same as in my book, I can't know for sure what's up, but I'm wondering, should I not bother loading any with more powder than 24-24.5 grains since my velocity is at these levels with that charge, or am I ok to go up to the listed max of 25 so long as there are no pressure signs?

I would like to try the ladder test all the way up to maybe even 25.5 grains, as I know an older revision of one of the books said that is the max load. Is there a very good reason not to go that high, assuming that there are zero pressure signs at 25 grains?

Same thing happened with 50 grain Berger and h335...This time I hit max velocity at an even lower percentage of max charge.

Also I had very similar results with 4895 and some Berger 55 grain bullets. This time I hit max velocity at about 0.6 to 0.7 below max, but the difference between start and max was much smaller with this bullet and powder combo.

Is this all acceptable and normal or an I maybe missing something here?

Finally, is there a theoretical reason that you absolutely cannot go above max charge? Before you go all safety bear on me, I'm not saying I want to load up 30 grains and go nuts, I'm more curious for the educational side rather than chasing the highest velocity. Though it would be nice to be able to determine if there is possibly a node up just above max listed charge that is real nice. I understand that I will likely find a perfectly acceptable and accurate load below max just fine, again this last paragraph is simply curiosity and education.

Finally, when you are developing a load, in general, do you load up your rounds starting from min, up to max in increments of x grains, then test and see? If you find you hit max velocity before max charge with zero pressure signs, will you take the ones with the higher charges home and take them apart, or will you simply fire then and see what they do (assuming they do not show any signs of excess pressure)?

Thanks for any help here all

 

[hamerdwolfpussy]

I would fire them off and watch the cases for signs of ov er pressure . A few of my rifles are over max grains according to the book but my brass tells me a different story . Just be careful

 

[cr5]

When loading for small capacity cartridges like 223 I go up in 0.2gr increments.
I don't really worry about velocity until I find an accurate load. Faster is rarely more accurate and I don't really care if I have to dial up more elevation for longer range as long as the groups are small.
I load to book published COL until I find my accurate load (uusually pick the hotter node if there are two) then start playing with length to fine tune it to see if there is any more to be had from it.

Be careful and watch for pressure signs.

 

[dero338]

Data in your book are for one specific barrel, case,bullet and primer

all barrels are different and this is where you have to know how recognize pressure signs when they appear

In your 700 1-9 twist 223,
i suggest varget and 69SMK

 

[CyaN1de]

Data in your book are for one specific barrel, case,bullet and primer

all barrels are different and this is where you have to know how recognize pressure signs when they appear

In your 700 1-9 twist 223,
i suggest varget and 69SMK

^^^ This is the correct answer to the OP's dilemma.

If you have in fact done your research, you would have come across the fact that not every barrel is created equal. Even 2 barrels made consecutively on the same machine, by the same person, from the same batch of steel will likely perform differently.

 

[romurra]

Case volume impacts pressure too. Usually military (eg IVI or LC) are stouter cases, and thicker case walls give less volume. Less volume delivers higher pressure for the same load. This needs to be considered as well.

 

[krprice84]

^^^ This is the correct answer to the OP's dilemma.

If you have in fact done your research, you would have come across the fact that not every barrel is created equal. Even 2 barrels made consecutively on the same machine, by the same person, from the same batch of steel will likely perform differently.

I absolutely have come across this realization - my reason for asking here is to find suggestions on my own personal gun and experience. Hence why I noted that the bullets I'm using are not even the same as the ones listed in the manual - only the same weight and general shape. I fully understand that this means that I am much more likely to NOT get the exact results. I guess where I'm trying to get at is... is the max velocity or the max charge, or neither, an important variable to not exceed? I mean, if I loaded something up (as an extreme example) and had 1 grain under the max charge but ended up with a velocity of 300 FPS higher than the max charge's velocity, for a similar bullet (again, i understand this is an extreme example, but the point I'm trying to understand is, I think, valid), should I be concerned that my velocity is much higher than the listed max? Or since my charge is still below, am I not doing too bad (assuming there are ZERO excess pressure sings)?

Or, would you say, if I went to the max charge, but was still 300 FPS BELOW what the max charge velocity was for a similar (or even the same) bullet and powder, would you suggest looking into a slightly higher charge, to reach closer to the max velocity?

I understand that velocity and charge are not nearly as important as the actual pressure generated, but since I do not have a rig to test pressures, I just simply have to rely on what I do have (same way most everyone else does it).

I think, from what cr5 posted above, I will be doing this weekend, is two things. First, I'm going to make up some loads that seemed decently accurate, near the higher end of velocity but not at max, and use them just for tossing at the gophers. I will also make up a number of rounds, starting at about half a grain or so above the recommended starting load (as I know that's going to be pretty low, don't I?) and move up in 0.2 grain increments until I hit the max load. If I go from 23.6 grains or so up to 25 grains, that gives me 8 different loads to do a ladder test on, which should give me a decent idea of what area I should be looking at for my load, right?

So my next question is, if what I put in the above paragraph sounds reasonable, is it even WORTH throwing the rounds over the chrono? I mean, if I find a node that is accurate at between 24.4 and 24.6 grains of H335 under these bullets, then why bother caring what the velocity is, assuming there are no pressure signs at all? It seems to me that the velocity is rather unimportant if one is developing loads in this manner, correct? Would you find the velocity simply for your ballistic calculations? Or do you actually care what it is and how it relates to load development? If you care, what would you do with the information you get after you chrono the most accurate load? I can't imagine it would get changed from the most accurate based on velocity alone, so I can't think of what you would do with it unless you are talking about ballistic calculations?

Thanks for all the help so far guys!

 

[na1lb0hm]

the standard deviation of your velocities over a set number of rounds can help you accurately determine how close to the same your rounds are.
consistent reloading practices=consistent velocity=consistent results=consistent LR performance.
I also compare my velocity to factory ammo to see how I am stacking up accuracy and velocity wise.

bear in mind that reloading manuals very so greatly in charges and velocities that it's sometimes best to have two or three on hand to verify and double check. I have found hornady very light on charges, and nosler a little heavier. There is no bible or set standard for velocity/pressure/accuracy, which is why it's ludicrous for manuals to mark "load was most accurate". However, if my load was showing pressure signs and far under the projected velocity or factory velocity, I would consider changing powder or components to find the best mix.

 

[sunray]

You really should be looking for the best accuracy and not chasing the highest velocity. The highest velocity doesn't mean the best accuracy out of your rifle.
In any case, published velocities reflect the conditions on the day of the tests with the rifle or universal receiver only.
Five thou from the lands may or may not be right for your rifle. Fiddling with that is a load tweaking technique done after you find the best load. As is going back to the load before (As in the best group came at 25 grains, go back to 24.5 and come back up) and going up by .1 grain. Isn't really necessary though. You will find that a tenth matters, but a few tenths smaller group isn't likely to be noticed.
According to Hodgdon, your 25 grain, H335, 62 grain load is already 3.6 over max. Not likely enough to be catastrophically dangerous, but you might want to look into another manual. Oh and the people who claim the reloading companies are ruled by lawyers are confused. The MBAs have run 'em for years.

 

[Dynamic1]

Trim all your cases to the same length, as per the manuals for consistency. Test the COL for each bullet in YOUR rifle (you can buy the Hornaday Case Length Gauge (http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/manuals-current/metalic-reloading/LNL-OAL-Gauges.pdf) or something comparable (i.e. Sinclair's gauge). OR, you can cut slots into a case with a dremel tool and slide a bullet into the case. Insert the case into the rifle and close the bolt, then CAREFULLY remove it and measure the COL specific to your rifle for that particular bullet. (Note: you may want to buy a bullet comparator so you are measuring off the Ogive for most consistent measurements).

Load your cartridges using several manual listings as a guide. As you test fire your loads, monitor your cases after each incremental increase in charge weight for pressure signs. Do your ladder test, followed by a pressure series to develop your most accurate load.

Once you have your most accurate load identified, you can try varying the Seating Depth to tweak it further.

THEN, run your loads over your chronometer so you know the velocity for that load to use in Ballistics Calculators to determine the ballistics specific to that load for zapping gophers at ranges between 25 and 250+ yds.

Reloading is fun and challenging, varying single parameters in each load to test the effect on accuracy. Keep accurate records of your tweaks and corresponding results.

I have a magic load for my .223 (50 gr Hornaday V-Max with 27 gr H4895 and Federal 205M primers). Two weeks ago I was zapping gophers between 20 and 235 yds. Some were big and plump, others were thin (weasel-like), probably young pups. Hitting the thin ones at 200+ yds was very challenging, but very satisfying when all my time at the range developing my magic load resulted in dancing, skipping, acrobatic gophers flying across the countryside.

Good luck with your efforts.

 

[krprice84]

You really should be looking for the best accuracy and not chasing the highest velocity. The highest velocity doesn't mean the best accuracy out of your rifle.
In any case, published velocities reflect the conditions on the day of the tests with the rifle or universal receiver only.
Five thou from the lands may or may not be right for your rifle. Fiddling with that is a load tweaking technique done after you find the best load. As is going back to the load before (As in the best group came at 25 grains, go back to 24.5 and come back up) and going up by .1 grain. Isn't really necessary though. You will find that a tenth matters, but a few tenths smaller group isn't likely to be noticed.
According to Hodgdon, your 25 grain, H335, 62 grain load is already 3.6 over max. Not likely enough to be catastrophically dangerous, but you might want to look into another manual. Oh and the people who claim the reloading companies are ruled by lawyers are confused. The MBAs have run 'em for years.

Wow, really hey. I have the Lyman's Manual at work here (i work in oil and gas, not a gun shop - i'm just that guy lol), its the 48th edition. In it, it shows a 60 Grain V-Max should have 23.2 to 25.8 grains of H335 under it for 2728 to 3121 FPS. It also shows a 63 grain SMP (flat base) to have 23.7 to 26.4 grains of H335 under it for 2800 to 3139 FPS. The Lee data shows 24 to 26 grains under a 62 or 63 grain bullet, i can't remember the details of the bullet, but the 60 or 61 grain they had listed was very similar.

I'll look around and see what else I can find for data - but I do know that I've found that newer data always seems to load a little lighter than older data. I believe, personally, it's become a liability thing. They have found that they can lower the max charge within reason and not kill the performance, and it saves them from the risk of having joe blow get all crappy about his gun blowing up because he started at their (old, higher) max load and his gun wasn't in good shape, or something like that. I also have been told by a large number of people that the max load listed is often very similar to a factory load... i.e. if you were to get a cartridge that was factory made with a nosler partition in it and used 4895, it should have very nearly the same charge as the max load listed for that round in that caliber. Not sure if this is totally true, but I've heard it so many times from a large number of true professionals in the firearms industry that I can't help but at least give it *some* weight... though everything has to be taken with a shaker full of salt now days - everyone is an expert... hence why i'm thankful for a place like this where i can get a bunch of opinions and weigh them.

 

[krprice84]

Trim all your cases to the same length, as per the manuals for consistency. Test the COL for each bullet in YOUR rifle (you can buy the Hornaday Case Length Gauge (http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/manuals-current/metalic-reloading/LNL-OAL-Gauges.pdf) or something comparable (i.e. Sinclair's gauge). OR, you can cut slots into a case with a dremel tool and slide a bullet into the case. Insert the case into the rifle and close the bolt, then CAREFULLY remove it and measure the COL specific to your rifle for that particular bullet. (Note: you may want to buy a bullet comparator so you are measuring off the Ogive for most consistent measurements).

Load your cartridges using several manual listings as a guide. As you test fire your loads, monitor your cases after each incremental increase in charge weight for pressure signs. Do your ladder test, followed by a pressure series to develop your most accurate load.

Once you have your most accurate load identified, you can try varying the Seating Depth to tweak it further.

THEN, run your loads over your chronometer so you know the velocity for that load to use in Ballistics Calculators to determine the ballistics specific to that load for zapping gophers at ranges between 25 and 250+ yds.

Reloading is fun and challenging, varying single parameters in each load to test the effect on accuracy. Keep accurate records of your tweaks and corresponding results.

I have a magic load for my .223 (50 gr Hornaday V-Max with 27 gr H4895 and Federal 205M primers). Two weeks ago I was zapping gophers between 20 and 235 yds. Some were big and plump, others were thin (weasel-like), probably young pups. Hitting the thin ones at 200+ yds was very challenging, but very satisfying when all my time at the range developing my magic load resulted in dancing, skipping, acrobatic gophers flying across the countryside.

Good luck with your efforts.

first, 27 grains of 4895... that sounds like you are right near the max hey? my manual lists a 50 grain jacketed blitz as having 26.5 compressed as the max load...interesting

as for measuring COL - why is it that i cannot measure the actual overall length and ignore the ogive, if i'm measuring the same bullets? I understand if i wanted to go to a different bullet, then having the base to ogive measurement would be handy, but if i'm able and willing to test the overall length of each bullet, then that seems to me it might be a good way to go, no? or is there enough variation in overall lengths but not ogives? I'd think if there was a variation in overall length, then there is also likely to be a variation in ogive, and without actually measuring EACH round made, it would be very difficult to be perfect (unless the variation in bullets is miniscule enough that it wno't matter... though that would surprise me.

Wish there was a bullet seating die that seated using the ogive instead of the general contour... or do they seat via the ogive? If that's the case, then you shouldn't even need to adjust your dies for different bullets, should you?

 

[chappy]

once you start seeing crono reading at the top end of your load you likely are reaching near max safe pressure. most manuels do not show loads at absolute max cup or psi as they want to factor powder lot difference, bullet shape and primer differences etc. not all rifles will take book max and some can take a grain or two more with no issues. unless you need more speed i would pick most accurate load and work from there. some rifles shoot there best at max loads others do not. sound like you need to pick a safe load and practice a lot more. lots of us chase speed. me included when in reality its easier to move up to a larger case and be safe. remember mild loads prolone brass life and wear and tear on your rifle.

 

[krprice84]

once you start seeing crono reading at the top end of your load you likely are reaching near max safe pressure. most manuels do not show loads at absolute max cup or psi as they want to factor powder lot difference, bullet shape and primer differences etc. not all rifles will take book max and some can take a grain or two more with no issues. unless you need more speed i would pick most accurate load and work from there. some rifles shoot there best at max loads others do not. sound like you need to pick a safe load and practice a lot more. lots of us chase speed. me included when in reality its easier to move up to a larger case and be safe. remember mild loads prolone brass life and wear and tear on your rifle.

Yea absolutely a fair statement. I'm not really interested in CHASING velocity, but i'd just like to know more about it. How it relates to pressures etc. I would think it isn't actually as related as it might appear... bullet shape, friction surface area, bullet hardness, bore diameter, land and groove dimensions and shape, all that i would think would make a massive impact on pressure and, i think, you could have a round come out of the gun at 2300 fps that's higher pressure and more dangerous than one that comes out at 3500 fps.... could you not?

 

[chappy]

use a very quick powder and heavy bullet. low velocity high pressure. very light bullet with slow powder will give low pressure low speed. its all interrealted. powder needs to be selected for the bullet you pick. for the 223 with mid to upper weights i like varget and win 748.

 

[krprice84]

use a very quick powder and heavy bullet. low velocity high pressure. very light bullet with slow powder will give low pressure low speed. its all interrealted. powder needs to be selected for the bullet you pick. for the 223 with mid to upper weights i like varget and win 748.

I'm limited right now... only powders I have currently are about a pound and a half of H335, a pound and a half of 4895 (though the half pound is IMR and the full one is Hogdons... not sure if I could just mix them up and use them together. I'd think so, I've been told I can, but I'm a little leery of it), a bit of 4064, a pound of 4198, and some pistol powders (.223 powered by Bullseye, anyone? )

 

[chappy]

you could probably mix the two 4895's and work up a load. when replacing that powder later on you would need to work up another load. me i would't mix them. look for some varget. its arround you just need to look.

 

[krprice84]

Why is Varget so great though? I man I know tons of guys use h335 and 4895 with zero problems. In fact I've been by numerous people that Varget is simply a more temperature independent version of 4895.....not sure how accurate it it's but I do know that these others are totally good powders, so why not use them? Varget is simply to much of an "in fashion" thing for me to want to spend time working on a load for it. I want something that works great and isn't maybe quite as popular with everyone, cuz then I know when a shipment comes in, I'll be able to in and get my powder, whereas you will have had to line up and fight people for it

 

[chappy]

its much like rel 15 for 308. there is lots of choice but rel15 works so well. for 223 there is probably 12 to 15 powders that work but varget seems to be on top. win 748 and tac also work really well.

 

[bigedp51]

krprice84

STOP over thinking these loads, manuals are general guidelines and ball park figures, your brass and primers will tell you far more. My .223 Savage rifle has a longer throat than either of my AR15 rifle do. Today firearms must have chambers and throats big enough to fit the cartridge and the company lawyer in.

Below is the exact same load of H335 in .223/5.56 cases with internal H2O capacities of 30.6 and 28.8 grains of H2O, now also realize the firearm and all the different components will effect chamber pressure and vellocity.
In most cases you will find your most accurate load before max pressure is reached, the expanshion of the base of the case and your primer will tell you far more than the reloading manuals will.

The difference in cases above was 6,000 psi and every rifle and component can change these readings, some manuals use SAAMI pressure barrels for testing, meaning the chamber and bore are at minimum dimensions. And other load data is taken with off the shelf factory rifle with strain gauges glued to the barrel and calibrated with a cartridge known chamber pressure. This why load data varies and WHY you are seeing the velocity reading from your rifle, rifles don't blow up from high velocity, the let go due to HIGH PRESSURE and the only gauge you have is your eyes looking at your cases and primers. Even this is not fool proof because military 5.56 Lake City cases will be the hardest in the base with "some" commercial .223 being the softest. Meaning what you think is high pressure in a Remington case wouldn't even show at the same pressure in a military 5.56 case.

When it comes to reloading NOTHING is written in stone...........

Rumor of the day, the military mixes ###### in with their brass.