.223 Soft-point?

Slowbalt

Slowbalt

CGN frequent flyer
Rating - 100%
42   0   2
Hey all,
Waiting for my Swiss Arms, and buying case, lock and ammo. But I was wondering if soft-point .223 would still tumble in large animals, or just mushroom? Since it will be my carry rifle, I was wondering how it would do on bear. Not for dedicated hunting, just in case. Not optimal I know, but still better than empty hands I guess. Lets hear ya!!
 
The .223 never did tumble. That was propaganda. And it's too light for Yogi. You'll just annoy him. A wounded bear of any species is extremely dangerous.
SP's made for the .223 are varmint bullets. They're designed to rapidly expand upon impact without much penetration. They literally appear to explode.
 
Any gun is better than no gun, but light high velocity bullets would be next to completely ineffective. SS109 would be the best bullet choice. The word "best" is used very loosely mind you.
 
You might try the Federal Vital-Shock line with the 60gr Nosler Partition bullet in .223 if you can find it. Federal classes this round for medium game.
 
The SS109 is NATO ball. No expansion at all and illegal for hunting. Shooting Yogi with one would really get him PO'd.
 
Slowbalt said:
Hey all,
Waiting for my Swiss Arms, and buying case, lock and ammo. But I was wondering if soft-point .223 would still tumble in large animals, or just mushroom? Since it will be my carry rifle, I was wondering how it would do on bear. Not for dedicated hunting, just in case. Not optimal I know, but still better than empty hands I guess. Lets hear ya!!
Click to expand...

I'm curious why you'd bother carrying a big, heavy, expensive rifle around that won't effectively deal with animals in your area.
 
Well, in my case ''hunting'' is just going around forestry roads in my car or on foot for short distances, no real hunting, just an excuse to be in the woods all day long not really doing anything. To me hunt = relaxing.
 
Slowbalt said:
Well, in my case ''hunting'' is just going around forestry roads in my car or on foot for short distances, no real hunting, just an excuse to be in the woods all day long not really doing anything. To me hunt = relaxing.
Click to expand...

I understand that you're not hunting with the rifle.

If you're carrying a rifle as protection from animals, I don't understand your choice.

If you're just plinking with it and are curious about how it would do against animals, then I understand your question better.

IMHO, a good all-around choice for fun bush rifle with much better ability to deal with animals would be an M305.
 
Winchester also makes a .223 loaded with a heavier expanding bullet, 60gr, IIRC.
I know .223 with standard 55gr "varmint" bullets will kill caribou.
Using any .223 in a defensive situation involving a bear strikes me as being a bad idea.
 
sunray said:
The SS109 is NATO ball. No expansion at all and illegal for hunting. Shooting Yogi with one would really get him PO'd.
Click to expand...

I figured penetration would be more important than expansion. He isn't planning on hunting so the legality is a moot point. Is this the guy that wanted a Beretta storm to make all his CO classmates drool? If so I can see why he is asking this rather ridiculous question.
 
Stevo said:
I understand that you're not hunting with the rifle.

If you're carrying a rifle as protection from animals, I don't understand your choice.

If you're just plinking with it and are curious about how it would do against animals, then I understand your question better.

IMHO, a good all-around choice for fun bush rifle with much better ability to deal with animals would be an M305.
Click to expand...

Well, mostly informal hunting, taking down coyotes, foxes and the such, mostly "varmints". Not my animal protection dedicated gun, just curious as to if I was caught "pants down".


B said:
I figured penetration would be more important than expansion. He isn't planning on hunting so the legality is a moot point. Is this the guy that wanted a Beretta storm to make all his CO classmates drool? If so I can see why he is asking this rather ridiculous question.
Click to expand...

Very relevant post, informative and showing a total reading comprehension of the thread he is talking about. No wonders why the suggestion is FMJ for hunting...
 
Well at first you were hunting small game, then you were just goofing around the bush wanting something you could possibly protect yourself with. So which is it? If you really want a swiss arms for protection than my posts are relevant, if you are hunting than yes my suggestion is illegal.

I didn't mean to insult you but previous posts made by you lead me to believe you are more interested in looking cool in the bush than anything else. I can see this is going south so rather than get into an arguement over the internet just go ahead and chalk this up as a win for yourself okay?:rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
B said:
Well at first you were hunting small game, then you were just goofing around the bush wanting something you could possibly protect yourself with. So which is it? If you really want a swiss arms for protection than my posts are relevant, if you are hunting than yes my suggestion is illegal.

I didn't mean to insult you but previous posts made by you lead me to believe you are more interested in looking cool in the bush than anything else. I can see this is going south so rather than get into an arguement over the internet just go ahead and chalk this up as a win for yourself okay?:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Not getting into an arguement, but getting facts straight.

I wish to informally hunt predators and small game ( Informally means no blind, bait, calling etc. Just playing in the trails and forestry roads. Also, small game is taken by my 870 which is always in my car. But in the bush I can only take one, so the swiss has to do it in the very very very unlikely issue of an animal attack, hence this thread.) The thread you were refering to was a pretty nasty misunderstanding, as you will see in the last page or so. Should have gotten my facts straight right at the start like I am doing right now.

Still wondering what are the proofs that .223 does not tumble, and if so, why do everyone and their mother still talks about it?
 
Slowbalt said:
Not getting into an arguement, but getting facts straight.

I wish to informally hunt predators and small game ( Informally means no blind, bait, calling etc. Just playing in the trails and forestry roads. Also, small game is taken by my 870 which is always in my car. But in the bush I can only take one, so the swiss has to do it in the very very very unlikely issue of an animal attack, hence this thread.) The thread you were refering to was a pretty nasty misunderstanding, as you will see in the last page or so. Should have gotten my facts straight right at the start like I am doing right now.

Still wondering what are the proofs that .223 does not tumble, and if so, why do everyone and their mother still talks about it?
Click to expand...

The proof is in ballistic gelatine tests and combat data. Ideally a 5.56 blows itself to peices usually starting at the cannelure IIRC. A bullet would have to be traveling at a relatively modest velocity and be of sturdy construction to withstand tumbling.

Keep in mind I am reffering to military ball ammunition. I imagine a soft point HV round would fragment starting at the nose and probably down to a lower velocity than FMJ. There are som many variables when it comes to terminal ballistics it is hard to say what one bullet will do compared to another. Perhaps someone more learned than myself can explain better.
 
I've been doing a bunch of research on the topic of 5.56mm terminal ballistics recently.

As you said, B, the wounding mechanism of 5.56 FMJ is bullet fragmentation, starting from the cannelure. The rotation of the bullet is no longer sufficent to stabilize it as it starts moving through tissue (instead of air), and it rotates sideways. (tumbles)

Once it begins tumbling, if it still has the required velocity, it will probably fragment. Research has suggested that the key figure is 2700 FPS. At or above that, the stresses applied to the bullet as it turns sideways cause it to break apart. This is the mechanism that results in significant wounds from 5.56 FMJ.

http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm#fragrange

This link does a good job of looking at 5.56mm terminal ballistics.

Personally, I'd be tempted to choose something a little heavier than the 55gr, and go with a Nosler partition or JHP type bullet. If I thought that I might be using that 5.56mm for bear defense. I'd probably choose the shortest barrel possible so that after I truly irritated him by shooting him 5 times with the 5.56mm, it would hurt less when Yogi shoved that carbine up my @ss. :eek:

Seriously...if you think that you might encounter a bear, something like an M305 would be a far better choice.
 
W Squared, does the 5.56 still tumble under the magical 2700FPS mark? I hear tell of 5.56 poking holes clean through at longer ranges as well as with SS109.
 
I'm not an expert on this. Although I've certainly been trained to do it, I've never actually fired a 5.56mm round with the intention of killing a person.

From what I've read, once you are under 2700 FPS the fragmentation does not happen. I don't know if this is due to a lack of tumbling which initiates the fragmentation, or if the decreased velocity of the bullet means that the forces in play are not strong enough to begin the breakdown at the cannelure.

Apparently there have been a lot of reports coming from US units using shorter barreled 5.56mm weapons (M4) about hostile targets being hit multiple times with 5.56mm rounds and still not being "out of the fight". Apparently this phenomenon is far less prevalent with weapons that have a 20" barrel (M16, M249 SAW). Keep in mind that this is happening with the newer FMJ rounds, which are also heavier, and thus drop below 2700 FPS much quicker than the 55gr stuff.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom