223 twist

Ar180shooter said:
my point is you shouldn't get hung up on the twist rate when most people run and gun with cheap bulk ammo.
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I hear you, most of the twist rate stuff is just forum flame war material, in the end it really comes down to the philosophy of what you intend to do with your rifle.

Personally, for just shooting standard loads I would get a 1 in 7" any day for simplicity's sake (besides the fact that I would probably be using a carbine length barrel or shorter) and a 1 in 9" or slower for a dedicated varmint bolt gun
 
Ar180shooter said:
I disagree. Out of a 20" bbl, a 1 in 9 can often still stabilize 75gr bullets, yet lighter varmint loads (45-50gr) are also usually good to go. With the 1 in 7 twist, I have personal experience with them sometimes over-stabilizing up to 55gr bullets. The gains in being able to shoot slightly heavier bullets than the 1 in 9 is IMHO over shadowed by not being able to shoot lighter bullets (you see many more 45 gr varmint loads than 80gr match loads). As Cote so eloquently described, a 1 in 7 twist is useful in shorter barrels, but in rifle length (20") barrels, you don't really gain anything. Now this doesn't mean you shouldn't get a rifle because it's a 1 in 7 twist, my point is you shouldn't get hung up on the twist rate when most people run and gun with cheap bulk ammo.
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Sorry, I had a brain fart, a 1 in 7 twist will probably have issues stabilizing anything below 55gr, in this I misspoke and you entirely correct, but IMO it's good to go for 55gr and above ammo.
 
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I have shot Sierra 40 grain HPs out of a 1:7 barrel with equally satisfactory results to Hornady 55 grain FMJs or Nosler 55 grain Ballistic Tips: all grouped within 2 MOA. I am convinced that 1:7 is the best choice for an AR or similar rifle for the following reasons:

1. Ability to use the widest variety of bullet weights/lengths without any major disadvantage. You can shoot inexpensive 55 grain FMJs in high volume but still have the capability to use the long 75-80 grain bullets if you ever choose to do so.
2. Better selection of quality barrels. 1:9 barrels are mostly made by low-end manufacturers like DPMS and Bushmaster.

Slower twists are best suited to bolt actions that will be used exclusively with light weight varmint bullets.
 
1-7 will stabilize anything. There is no such thing as destabilizing by overstablizing. Can you spin a football in the air so fast it wobbles?

The fishwife tale is not about stablization. It is that super light weight bullets with thin jacket will break up in flight by fast twist rate.

Back in 1983, the USMC had figured out that M193 has slightly better accuracy than M855 in M16A2. The quality of the ammunition is more important than the weight and profile of the bullet, in the case of general accuracy for this kind of rifles.

My thought is that , 1-9 is favored because machining time is faster. Less rifling = less time and less tooling wear. If a consumers do not need to shoot long profiled bullets like 77 gr smk or m859 tracer, why make a more costly product that is not needed? When 1/9 was popular up until about10 years ago, no one even thought of shooting 77gr or 75gr. The whole thing was made cool by the appearance of mk262, and then everyone thought they need to be able to shoot that heavy bullets for personal defense and zombie wars. That was the time when 1-7 became popular among the general public. If you don't have cases and cases of mk262 or other cool 7x gr bullets loaded ammo, or reload for that matter, it doesn't matter too much.
 
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Paladin308 said:
Why? it's not like 1 in 7" really costs any more, the whole overstabilization thing is a myth if not blown completely out of proportion. So what if you never really use the rifle at long range, why limit yourself? I'd have to see a lot more than anecdotal data before I'm convinced that a slower twist rate improves accuracy by any meaningful amount.
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The twist rate wont improve accuracy in any meaningful way unless your shooting beyond 300m .. I can really notice a difference when shooting a 12'' steel plate at 500m , my 1/7 Swiss Arms will out perform the 1/10 Swiss i had at that distance . The Swiss used 1/10 in their service rifles because they only intended to shoot to accurately to 300m ..
 
Steve Janes said:
I was approached at the range this weekend by another guy who had the norinco ammo yaw up to 90 degrees at close range, in his 1in8.5 twist.
The guy I spoke with at the range said he was getting this kind of key holing out of a 1in8.5 twist as well.
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I have the feeling I was that guy. And there is something odd about "some" of the Norinco .223.
 
Steve Janes those look like "combat affective hits" what are you wanting from that AR15? i'd honestly be happy with that performance out of my AR, if you want accuracy.... pay for it, or reload. thats my opinion.

edit: holy sh!t, I just re-read your post again thats at 5-10 meters, I thought you were shooting farther.... my statement may no longer be accurate, how is it at 50-100 if you did even try that far?

in my 1-7 twist rifle i've shot 40gr-75gr with mixed results all over the map, so far best is 75gr but i've had some impressive groupings with 40gr bullets loaded HOT. (this is a shillen match barrel on a savage action, not an AR15)
 
.30/06 FTW said:
I'm guessing that target was used for a shooting drill, not measuring group sizes.
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so he should be happy with the performance? I mean they are all on the paper but for some reason he's complaining about accuracy... looks quite effective to me... now i'm wondering if he's still getting hits at 50-100 meteres........ (cause if he does, i'd be happy with that "accuracy" for an AR15 shooting cheap ammo)
 
fred0000 said:
so he should be happy with the performance? I mean they are all on the paper but for some reason he's complaining about accuracy... looks quite effective to me... now i'm wondering if he's still getting hits at 50-100 meteres........ (cause if he does, i'd be happy with that "accuracy" for an AR15 shooting cheap ammo)
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He wasn't complaining about accuracy, he was complaining that the Norc ammo was keyholing at close range.
 
Wow looks like there are pretty stong opinions out there.

This is where it started. I have a chance to get a pretty nice frickin SL8 which is 1:7 Twist . Shoots accurate from everything I have read but I wanted to buy the cheap stuff for ammo. Every where I go its 55 Grain. 55 Grain seems to be one that everyone stocks. So after 4 pages of everyone's 2 cents ( and I appreciate it, believe me! This is what make gunnutz really cool) I will need to either buy proper 55 grain ammo (other than Norinco) or go with heavier grain ammo.

Looks like maybe I should move on and just get the 1:7 twist on HK SL8
 
Twist is not much of an issue unless you want to shoot a very long bullet.

90% of the accuracy of a rifle is the barrel.

90% of the accuracy of ammo is the bullet.

Those huge 55gr groups are poor bullets.
 
boss351cleveland said:
The twist rate wont improve accuracy in any meaningful way unless your shooting beyond 300m .. I can really notice a difference when shooting a 12'' steel plate at 500m , my 1/7 Swiss Arms will out perform the 1/10 Swiss i had at that distance . The Swiss used 1/10 in their service rifles because they only intended to shoot to accurately to 300m ..
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The Swiss DM's shoot out to 600m with 1:10 . Interesting observations on your part for sure. In my case I'm not sure if going to 1:7 would make a difference as my 1:10 sends 55gr out to 600 with decent results.

5 for 5 at 600.



15 rounds at 300

 
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GMHVAC said:
Wow looks like there are pretty stong opinions out there.

This is where it started. I have a chance to get a pretty nice frickin SL8 which is 1:7 Twist . Shoots accurate from everything I have read but I wanted to buy the cheap stuff for ammo. Every where I go its 55 Grain. 55 Grain seems to be one that everyone stocks. So after 4 pages of everyone's 2 cents ( and I appreciate it, believe me! This is what make gunnutz really cool) I will need to either buy proper 55 grain ammo (other than Norinco) or go with heavier grain ammo.

Looks like maybe I should move on and just get the 1:7 twist on HK SL8
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Invest a bit more in quality ammunition or hand-loading equipment. The $50 or so you save per 1000 rounds is a false sense of savings through an SL-8.
If you want to bang off cheap ammo at 50-100m, augment the SL8 with an SKS or similar and a crate or two of surplus ammunition.

boss351cleveland said:
The twist rate wont improve accuracy in any meaningful way unless your shooting beyond 300m .. I can really notice a difference when shooting a 12'' steel plate at 500m , my 1/7 Swiss Arms will out perform the 1/10 Swiss i had at that distance . The Swiss used 1/10 in their service rifles because they only intended to shoot to accurately to 300m ..
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Twist alone has no impact on a barrels' accuracy.
 
I had a 20" with a 1:8 and it shot everything well. I think it would be the best twist rate for being able to shoot most any ammo. If you plan to shoot exclusively 55gr then 1:9 would be good as well. I had an SL8-4 with 1:7 and it was OK with 55gr but did really well with 62gr and heavier.
Personally if I buy another .223 AR or barrel I'm going 1:8 and Wylde chamber again.
YMMV
 
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