.223 vs .308 - General Purpose Rifle

I don't understand the point of "superior range" of .308; sure its great but this isn't combat people. Your not a trained marksman trying to kill at terrorist at damn near a kilometer in the coringhall valley or something. Your just an honest dude living your life right? So why are you taking 800 M shots at two legged critters. Not many people would even notice you at that distance first off; I also bet fewer could hit you; especially if you were moving AND working in a team(exception to some long distance shooters). Also WHY THE F*** IS your G.P.R. sighted in for over 500 meters? Unless your assualting a position with strong enemy fire coming back at you. The extra 400 meters (only 300 in a section) that the .308 gives over the 5.56 doesn't even matter. If your really worried get .223 hydrashok ammo or something; jacket hollow points; soft points. Your not military and probably never will be so NATO standards don't apply to you. .308 in CQC is also a ridiculous idea; overpenetration is a major issue... "but I can shoot through walls"...SO? do you know whats on the other side of that wall? A room full of terrorists? or a room full of cover children hiding from your impressive suppressive fire/ insane amount of penetration.
5.56 is amazing; its an EPIC win rolled into a small; light; and fast round.
The people who complain about "stopping power" don't know a thing. Only 2 types of people keep fighting when shot (assuming no body armor) with 5.56. Most soldiers. and people high off their F***ING asses. in that case use a magical thing called AIMING to put a few more in them; you'd be amazing at what repition can do. Also why is he looking at an AR? Unless SHTF so hard that the rule of law no longer applied and there would be no reprecussions for you to take it out. So that means when food gets scarce; you can't bring your AR out. When you can't afford your bills; you can't bring your AR out. When there is blood making a 3 inch cover on the sidewalks up and down the street and the police aren't answering; then you can bring your AR (but you have way more problems).
You need to take hunting 2 legged critters out of the equation. One firearm for one task. Simple.
my M14 - hunting rifle
My AR (7.62 x 39. suck it) - Target rifle/ if SHTF if becomes combat rifle.
Sig 226 - Handgun.
Nuff said; don't clutter your loadout; Odds are you aren't going to become nomadic when SHTF anyway so your going to be able to store/swap gear and whatnot
"but its heavy" WELL TOUGHEN UP. One rifle for combat. On for hunting. You'll never need both at the same time. Ever.
"but what if I'm in combat and I see a deer" ... kay you probably have a whole bunch more problems then too.
"but carrying all that gear around is difficult" What? in SHTF your alone? All by yourself? you haven't set up DMR/rifleman/I.C./2I.C/Support roles yet? spread out equipment and weapons easily amongst your friends and for logicstics reasons actually made caliber and ammunition choices that made sense? Uh oh. Your in trouble.
Be compeletely realistic here. If you want something to fight with; look at all the angles.
 
Northman999 said:
I've got to say, I just don't see .223/5.56 being an honest "general purpose" rifle for "northerners".

There's a good reason that in most jurisdictions you cannot hunt big game with centerfire .22's. It's also the same reason that in Iraq, the new(ish) guideline to kill a bad guy, as opposed to hurting him, is four rounds in the body and two in the head.

It's a .22!

If you want a general purpose rifle for a wide range of scenarios in the north, you're clearly leaning towards .308.

And once a fellow starts shooting multiple rounds of .223 to get the same effects on a target as one round of .308, the whole cheaper/lighter thing goes out the window.
Click to expand...

AR15 pattern rifles are restricted anyways so he can't legally use it for hunting anyways.
 
ColassalEntry said:
I don't understand the point of "superior range" of .308; sure its great but this isn't combat people. Your not a trained marksman trying to kill at terrorist at damn near a kilometer in the coringhall valley or something. Your just an honest dude living your life right? So why are you taking 800 M shots at two legged critters. Not many people would even notice you at that distance first off; I also bet fewer could hit you; especially if you were moving AND working in a team(exception to some long distance shooters). Also WHY THE F*** IS your G.P.R. sighted in for over 500 meters? Unless your assualting a position with strong enemy fire coming back at you. The extra 400 meters (only 300 in a section) that the .308 gives over the 5.56 doesn't even matter. If your really worried get .223 hydrashok ammo or something; jacket hollow points; soft points. Your not military and probably never will be so NATO standards don't apply to you. .308 in CQC is also a ridiculous idea; overpenetration is a major issue... "but I can shoot through walls"...SO? do you know whats on the other side of that wall? A room full of terrorists? or a room full of cover children hiding from your impressive suppressive fire/ insane amount of penetration.
5.56 is amazing; its an EPIC win rolled into a small; light; and fast round.
The people who complain about "stopping power" don't know a thing. Only 2 types of people keep fighting when shot (assuming no body armor) with 5.56. Most soldiers. and people high off their F***ING asses. in that case use a magical thing called AIMING to put a few more in them; you'd be amazing at what repition can do. Also why is he looking at an AR? Unless SHTF so hard that the rule of law no longer applied and there would be no reprecussions for you to take it out. So that means when food gets scarce; you can't bring your AR out. When you can't afford your bills; you can't bring your AR out. When there is blood making a 3 inch cover on the sidewalks up and down the street and the police aren't answering; then you can bring your AR (but you have way more problems).
You need to take hunting 2 legged critters out of the equation. One firearm for one task. Simple.
my M14 - hunting rifle
My AR (7.62 x 39. suck it) - Target rifle/ if SHTF if becomes combat rifle.
Sig 226 - Handgun.
Nuff said; don't clutter your loadout; Odds are you aren't going to become nomadic when SHTF anyway so your going to be able to store/swap gear and whatnot
"but its heavy" WELL TOUGHEN UP. One rifle for combat. On for hunting. You'll never need both at the same time. Ever.
"but what if I'm in combat and I see a deer" ... kay you probably have a whole bunch more problems then too.
"but carrying all that gear around is difficult" What? in SHTF your alone? All by yourself? you haven't set up DMR/rifleman/I.C./2I.C/Support roles yet? spread out equipment and weapons easily amongst your friends and for logicstics reasons actually made caliber and ammunition choices that made sense? Uh oh. Your in trouble.
Be compeletely realistic here. If you want something to fight with; look at all the angles.
Click to expand...

Amazingly well sad!!!
 
ColassalEntry said:
I don't understand the point of "superior range" for .308. Sure it's great, but this isn't combat people. You're not a trained marksman trying to kill terrorists at damn near a kilometer in the Korengal Valley or something. You're just a honest dude living your life, right? So why are you taking 800m shots at two legged critters? Not many people would even notice you at that distance. I also bet fewer could hit you especially if you're moving AND working in a team(except for some long distance shooters).

Also WHY THE F*** IS your G.P.R. sighted in for over 500 meters? Unless you're assaulting a position with strong enemy return fire, the extra 400 meters (or 300 in a section) that the .308 gives over the 5.56 doesn't even matter. If you're really worried, get .223 hydrashok ammo, jacketed hollow points, soft points or something. You're not military and probably never will be so NATO standards don't apply to you.

.308 in CQC is also a ridiculous idea; Over penetration is a major issue. "But I can shoot through walls"...SO? Do you know what's on the other side of that wall? A room full of terrorists or a room full of children hiding from your impressive suppressive fire/insane amounts of penetration.

5.56 is amazing; It's an EPIC WIN rolled into a small, light, and fast round. The people who complain about "stopping power" don't know a thing. Only two types of people keep fighting when shot (assuming no body armor) with 5.56. Most soldiers and people high off their F***ING asses. In that case, use a magical thing called AIMING to put a few more in them. You'd be amazed at what repetition can do. Also, why is he looking at an AR? Unless SHTF so hard that the rule of law no longer applied and there would be no repercussions, then you can take it out. So that means when food gets scarce; you can't bring your AR out. When you can't afford your bills; you can't bring your AR out. When there is Blood making a 3 inch cover on the sidewalks up and down the street and the police aren't answering then you can bring your AR (but you have way more problems).

You need to take hunting 2 legged critters out of the equation. One firearm for one task. Simple.
My M14 - hunting rifle
My AR (7.62 x 39. suck it) - Target rifle/ if SHTF it becomes a combat rifle.
Sig 226 - Handgun.
Nuff said. Don't clutter your loadout. Odds are you aren't going to become nomadic when SHTF anyway so your going to be able to store/swap gear and whatnot
"But it's heavy" WELL, TOUGHEN UP. One rifle for combat. One for hunting. You'll never need both at the same time. Ever.
"But what if I'm in combat and I see a deer" ... Okay, but you probably have a whole bunch more problems if that's the case.
"But carrying all that gear around is difficult" What? In SHTF, you're alone? All by yourself? You haven't set up DMR/rifleman/I.C./2I.C/Support roles yet? Have you spread out equipment and weapons easily amongst your friends and for logistics reasons, actually made caliber and ammunition choices that make sense? Uh oh. Your in trouble.
Be completely realistic here. If you want something to fight with; look at all the angles.
Click to expand...

OMFG YES! I kept glancing back at this thread hoping someone would express what I was thinking.

EDIT: Edited it for future reposting.
 
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Gunnerlove said:
The US Army has found that hitting the target takes care of most of the .223s reported inability to kill. Shooting AT something is not good enough, and never has been.
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^ X2! And hitting the target at the right spot.

And a lot of physical conditioning.
 
ColassalEntry said:
I don't understand the point of "superior range" of .308; sure its great but this isn't combat people. Your not a trained marksman trying to kill at terrorist at damn near a kilometer in the coringhall valley or something. Your just an honest dude living your life right? So why are you taking 800 M shots at two legged critters. Not many people would even notice you at that distance first off; I also bet fewer could hit you; especially if you were moving AND working in a team(exception to some long distance shooters). Also WHY THE F*** IS your G.P.R. sighted in for over 500 meters? Unless your assualting a position with strong enemy fire coming back at you. The extra 400 meters (only 300 in a section) that the .308 gives over the 5.56 doesn't even matter. If your really worried get .223 hydrashok ammo or something; jacket hollow points; soft points. Your not military and probably never will be so NATO standards don't apply to you. .308 in CQC is also a ridiculous idea; overpenetration is a major issue... "but I can shoot through walls"...SO? do you know whats on the other side of that wall? A room full of terrorists? or a room full of cover children hiding from your impressive suppressive fire/ insane amount of penetration.
5.56 is amazing; its an EPIC win rolled into a small; light; and fast round.
The people who complain about "stopping power" don't know a thing. Only 2 types of people keep fighting when shot (assuming no body armor) with 5.56. Most soldiers. and people high off their F***ING asses. in that case use a magical thing called AIMING to put a few more in them; you'd be amazing at what repition can do. Also why is he looking at an AR? Unless SHTF so hard that the rule of law no longer applied and there would be no reprecussions for you to take it out. So that means when food gets scarce; you can't bring your AR out. When you can't afford your bills; you can't bring your AR out. When there is blood making a 3 inch cover on the sidewalks up and down the street and the police aren't answering; then you can bring your AR (but you have way more problems).
You need to take hunting 2 legged critters out of the equation. One firearm for one task. Simple.
my M14 - hunting rifle
My AR (7.62 x 39. suck it) - Target rifle/ if SHTF if becomes combat rifle.
Sig 226 - Handgun.
Nuff said; don't clutter your loadout; Odds are you aren't going to become nomadic when SHTF anyway so your going to be able to store/swap gear and whatnot
"but its heavy" WELL TOUGHEN UP. One rifle for combat. On for hunting. You'll never need both at the same time. Ever.
"but what if I'm in combat and I see a deer" ... kay you probably have a whole bunch more problems then too.
"but carrying all that gear around is difficult" What? in SHTF your alone? All by yourself? you haven't set up DMR/rifleman/I.C./2I.C/Support roles yet? spread out equipment and weapons easily amongst your friends and for logicstics reasons actually made caliber and ammunition choices that made sense? Uh oh. Your in trouble.
Be compeletely realistic here. If you want something to fight with; look at all the angles.
Click to expand...

Is this too long to use as a sigline? 'Cause if not, I want to put the whole thing in there. :D
 
"...attrition-scenario..." A what? The definition of the word 'attrition' has nothing to do with "Lean and difficult times." However, the .223 is less expensive to shoot, but it won't do the things the .308 can do.
"...friend of mine wants..." That's reason enough. Assuming he has an RPAL. Mind you, other than the very limited use of the original '50's vintage Armalite AR-10, there has never been an AR platform battle rifle chambered in 7.62/.308.
 
As I was telling someone the other day, all I want is a rifle that weighs less than 5 pounds, has no recoil, is ultra reliable, will shoot sub MOA regardless of my inability to do so, looks awesome, doesn't require cleaning or lubrication, is cheap to feed for shooting anything from rats to moose, and for less than $500.

Is that so much to ask?
 
Gunnerlove said:
The US Army has found that hitting the target takes care of most of the .223s reported inability to kill. Shooting AT something is not good enough, and never has been.
Click to expand...

Interesting side note here. When talking to European hunters of wild boar and roe deer, I found that they prefer to use larger, slower bullets on game, rather than the .223, they say it causes more meat damage.
 
If he plans on hunting with his rifle, there's really only one choice imho, M14 in 308. Yes it would be great to go hunting with a 308 AR but it's just not going to happen anytime soon in Canada.
 
eg23 said:
If he plans on hunting with his rifle, there's really only one choice imho, M14 in 308. Yes it would be great to go hunting with a 308 AR but it's just not going to happen anytime soon in Canada.
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You can hunt with the RFB...
 
Shoot! My bad! I forgot about the RFB...sorry....but the M14 is a tad more affordable. I do think taking a deer with an RFB would be awesome!
 
No, no, no, NO! You all have it wrong. 20mm is the ONLY choice for any hunting; two legged or four legged. And talk about a room clearing vehicle. It just can't be beat. I just think is it time to put this 5.56/7.62 debate behind us and agree that the only REAL MAN's calibre is 20mm. I know when the SHTF that not only will I be able to deal with the sh*t but will be able to blow the f**king fan to hell too.

Krunch :rockOn:
 
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