243 for Moose/Elk

Slaymoar said:
I haven't shot the 243 at all.
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Did you miss my point?

You have been vocal about opinions "against" using .243 for elk/moose, by those without actual experience...

And yet you are vocally "in favour" of .243 for elk/moose... without any actual experience...

Here is the thing... I own many .243's and have shot the cartridge in numerous platforms for 40 years... I also reload for it (and 20 other cartridges)... I have hunted extensively with .243's... and I am pleased to say that I have never personally fired a round from a .243 at an elk or moose... and never will... do you see how experience outside of the actual deed can lead to that conclusion?

It behooves all hunters to employ prudence in the pursuit and application of our sport... a few sour scenarios can turn off many members of the non-hunting, voting public... and I would like my grandkids to have a chance to experience what I am so passionate about.
 
1899 said:
I think this is actually the key. Many new shooters are recoil sensitive and as you know shot placement is the key. They are very comfortable with the .243, are not flinching and therefore are able to make a better shot. This was actually part of the impetus for my .270 thread - with the good quality lighter bullets you can get .243 levels of recoil with a little better bullet diameter.

Of course an important part is to have a good mentor to help the new hunter along the way - which naturally includes teaching limitations. My boy needs to wait two more years before he can start hunting, but I am going to start him on centerfire in the next week or so. First I am going to make up some reduced loads in the .30-06 and try those out myself.
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I seriously doubt that anyone upset by the level of recoil from a moderate capacity case 6.5 would shoot any better with a .243, although the specific rifle and fit to the shooter strongly effects the amount of perceived recoil. Its like giving the kid a .410 to smack geese because it doesn't kick. That's fine but he has a much better chance of actually killing a goose with a 20 ga, that is still within his recoil tolerance. By increasing the diameter of a rifle bullet by a half a millimeter, and upping the bullet weight by 40 grs, represents a significant advantage over the .243 on large species of big game.

I've started a number of youngsters with the .30/06 utilizing a 125 gr Sierra over a light charge of 3031 or 4895. A 130 gr TSX loaded to 2600 fps trumps the performance of the .243, and kicks about the same.
 
Like my granddad always told me: "Hire the youngsters while they still know everything there is to know about things they have never done."
 
hoytcanon said:
Here is the thing... I own many .243's and have shot the cartridge in numerous platforms for 40 years... I also reload for it (and 20 other cartridges)... I have hunted extensively with .243's... and I am pleased to say that I have never personally fired a round from a .243 at an elk or moose... and never will... do you see how experience outside of the actual deed can lead to that conclusion?

It behooves all hunters to employ prudence in the pursuit and application of our sport... a few sour scenarios can turn off many members of the non-hunting, voting public... and I would like my grandkids to have a chance to experience what I am so passionate about.
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Like I said, wife started with an SKS, shot a deer within her limitations. Success. Got her a .243 not thinking she'd want to hunt elk or moose, but she didn't want a such a heavy rifle. Once she said she did, well, bigger calibre. I love the .243, but it stops at deer for less than experts. I would use it for moose or elk, but, I don't consider myself a novice and it would have to be a surprise presentation while out for deer (which wouldn't happen because I always grab an '06 or a .303) and it would have to be perfect.
 
hoytcanon said:
Did you miss my point?

You have been vocal about opinions "against" using .243 for elk/moose, by those without actual experience...

And yet you are vocally "in favour" of .243 for elk/moose... without any actual experience...

Here is the thing... I own many .243's and have shot the cartridge in numerous platforms for 40 years... I also reload for it (and 20 other cartridges)... I have hunted extensively with .243's... and I am pleased to say that I have never personally fired a round from a .243 at an elk or moose... and never will... do you see how experience outside of the actual deed can lead to that conclusion?

It behooves all hunters to employ prudence in the pursuit and application of our sport... a few sour scenarios can turn off many members of the non-hunting, voting public... and I would like my grandkids to have a chance to experience what I am so passionate about.
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Yes point taken. Thanks
 
What I have experienced over years of hunting with many different gangs is quite sad to say the least. I witnessed far to many hunters with their big magnums they shoot maybe a handful of shots a year and can't seem to figure out why they so often never find the animal the swear the hit perfect. And quite the opposite with smaller less potent rifle hunters as they seem to have much greater success as they do shoot their rifles more as they enjoy shooting them and become much more confident and efficient with their guns on the average. Confidence and the proper bullits and the patience to make the first shot count is IMO what respecting the hunt is about. Passing up on an animal that is not a perfect shot is the true show of respect instead some letting the magnum hale marry at it. If the OP is confident and uses proper bullits and has the respect to wait for the perfect shot or pass if not, I can't see why he should be frowned upon. Sure there are many out there that can shoot heavy calibres well but there are also many that can't but shoot them anyways. As for the 243 the debate will rage on for a long time to come....lmao
 
fugawi said:
Correct me please if I misunderstand you... are you saying you have no experience shooting a big game animal yourself? (even a deer, which really aren't all that big)

Actually aiming, pulling the trigger and harvesting (or not) what you shot?

I want to be clear on this. From your post it seems like you never have.
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No big game. Just grouse (lots) and fox, one wolf. I have been present at several big game hunts and harvests though, but that doesn't count. Three bull moose so far. All were around 600-1000 lbs. Back then I didn't know much about rifles other than some are more powerful than others. Even back 1-2 years I was only familiar with 22/308/12ga/3006 and a few others I hadn't shot myself. But once I started connecting some dots and realizing how much damage a rifle can make, I had a whole new respect for each caliber and its ballistics / performance.

I can see how a bad experience could potentially give a bad name to our sport, which I understand the point. I guess its a caliber that needs a bit better shot placement? I'm not too worried with my 30-30... maybe I'm wrong about that too?
 
Slaymoar said:
No big game. Just grouse (lots) and fox, one wolf. I have been present at several big game hunts and harvests though, but that doesn't count. Three bull moose so far. All were around 600-1000 lbs. Back then I didn't know much about rifles other than some are more powerful than others. Even back 1-2 years I was only familiar with 22/308/12ga/3006 and a few others I hadn't shot myself. But once I started connecting some dots and realizing how much damage a rifle can make, I had a whole new respect for each caliber and its ballistics / performance.

I can see how a bad experience could potentially give a bad name to our sport, which I understand the point. I guess its a caliber that needs a bit better shot placement? I'm not too worried with my 30-30... maybe I'm wrong about that too?
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Don't sweat it... this place is all about learning, and there are plenty of truly experienced outdoorsmen to learn from... when you are starting out, listening is far more productive than speaking (or writing in this case). Good luck in your future hunting endeavors... and recruit as many of your buddies as possible...
 
No problem Slaymoar. In one of my earlier posts I replied that I wouldn't but that doesn't mean it can't be done. Hunters mess up with .300 Magnums too. Lots of moose have been taken with 30/30s. Its all about range, shot placement, bullets etc.

Comes with experience, keep on hunting and asking questions/offering opinions.
 
I can include myself as being one in slaymoars position..... total novice until I came here and learned..... I now reload, own a few "off aliber" rifles and enjoy the sport more for my experience.....

Maybe I am lucky having been brought up on the 30 aught six in that I consider it a great do all cartridge and have harvested bear deer, moose and elk with it..... and maybe I am bias with the attitude of "why go less?".....

I guess the best thing I can add here is be sure that what you are shooting at will drop when you shoot it.... I dont consider 243 a moose cartridge and I would feel inadequate if it was what I had in my hands for moose.....

I consider myself a "decent" shot as well.... but I sure wouldn't want to be staring down a large bull with that small pill...

Quote all the the stats you want about energy etc..... but my experience says size matters....
 
Boomer said:
I seriously doubt that anyone upset by the level of recoil from a moderate capacity case 6.5 would shoot any better with a .243, although the specific rifle and fit to the shooter strongly effects the amount of perceived recoil. Its like giving the kid a .410 to smack geese because it doesn't kick. That's fine but he has a much better chance of actually killing a goose with a 20 ga, that is still within his recoil tolerance. By increasing the diameter of a rifle bullet by a half a millimeter, and upping the bullet weight by 40 grs, represents a significant advantage over the .243 on large species of big game.

I've started a number of youngsters with the .30/06 utilizing a 125 gr Sierra over a light charge of 3031 or 4895. A 130 gr TSX loaded to 2600 fps trumps the performance of the .243, and kicks about the same.
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I think the .410 on geese analogy is a bit extreme. Your view also presupposes that the shooter/mentor reload, which isn't always the case. There was a young guy at the LGS today and he was looking at a .243 Win and a .375 Ruger. It was painfully clear that he had no idea what he was talking about. He was going with the .243 and was asking about the ammo - "is this flat shooting; are these bullets ok for deer" etc.

I know a fellow who just started shooting and hunting this year. He bought a T3 Lite in .30-06 and some 180gr Factory ammo. He also bought a .22 - thankfully. Anyways, he was telling me that his shooting still needs work. The Limbsaver helps but he says he still is shooting quite large groups due to the recoil. I'm sure he is flinching. Anyways, I told him to pick up some 150gr Partitions and I will load them to about 2700 fps, which should help significantly. I'll go out with him and help him work on his technique.

Anyways, have you tried H4198 with the 125gr bullets? I just loaded some today - R-P brass, BR-2 primers, 37.0gr H4198 and 125gr BT. I'm curious to see how it will shoot. And the wonderful thing about the .30-06 is...I loaded a second load too: with 220gr Partitions. Quite the spread. ;)
 
1899 said:
I think the .410 on geese analogy is a bit extreme. Your view also presupposes that the shooter/mentor reload, which isn't always the case. There was a young guy at the LGS today and he was looking at a .243 Win and a .375 Ruger. It was painfully clear that he had no idea what he was talking about. He was going with the .243 and was asking about the ammo - "is this flat shooting; are these bullets ok for deer" etc.

I know a fellow who just started shooting and hunting this year. He bought a T3 Lite in .30-06 and some 180gr Factory ammo. He also bought a .22 - thankfully. Anyways, he was telling me that his shooting still needs work. The Limbsaver helps but he says he still is shooting quite large groups due to the recoil. I'm sure he is flinching. Anyways, I told him to pick up some 150gr Partitions and I will load them to about 2700 fps, which should help significantly. I'll go out with him and help him work on his technique.

Anyways, have you tried H4198 with the 125gr bullets? I just loaded some today - R-P brass, BR-2 primers, 37.0gr H4198 and 125gr BT. I'm curious to see how it will shoot. And the wonderful thing about the .30-06 is...I loaded a second load too: with 220gr Partitions. Quite the spread. ;)
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IMR 4198 isn't a powder I normally have on hand, but I do use 3031, 4895, and have some surplus powders, both ball and extruded, that I have from pulled military ammo and work up .30/06 loads with. I load cast 200 gr bullets behind fast burning powders like Unique, 2400, or SR-4759. If you want a gentle 200 gr jacketed load, you can copy the cast bullet data and use it with a jacketed bullet for 1600-1800 fps. Loaded to full speed in the '06 a 220 gr Partition will get your attention, but its a killer too. A 150 gr bullet loaded to 2700 fps was the original US military load, and this load, the only one available at the time, was used by Stewart Edward White to take dozens if not hundreds of African game animals over the months he spent there. White was reputedly an extraordinary rifleman who seldom needed a follow up shot despite the full patch spitzer, on game weighing up to a ton. As White proved, a hunter can cover a lot of ground with his .30/06. Today's hunters seem to be able to accomplish much less with more.
 
bearkilr said:
Why not get your cousin to send you some? :)
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I have an excellent ballistics program called Quick Load that is very useful for conjecturing rifle cartridge loads and my cousin from Houghton, Michigan who is not cool with computers called me on the phone when he was developing the loads I spoke of earlier to run his numbers thru the Quick Load program for him.
That's when he told me about his elk hunting forays.
I didn't see the animals or any pics so I don't know how much of the story was wheat and how much was chaff.
 
Boomer said:
IMR 4198 isn't a powder I normally have on hand, but I do use 3031, 4895, and have some surplus powders, both ball and extruded, that I have from pulled military ammo and work up .30/06 loads with. I load cast 200 gr bullets behind fast burning powders like Unique, 2400, or SR-4759. If you want a gentle 200 gr jacketed load, you can copy the cast bullet data and use it with a jacketed bullet for 1600-1800 fps. Loaded to full speed in the '06 a 220 gr Partition will get your attention, but its a killer too. A 150 gr bullet loaded to 2700 fps was the original US military load, and this load, the only one available at the time, was used by Stewart Edward White to take dozens if not hundreds of African game animals over the months he spent there. White was reputedly an extraordinary rifleman who seldom needed a follow up shot despite the full patch spitzer, on game weighing up to a ton. As White proved, a hunter can cover a lot of ground with his .30/06. Today's hunters seem to be able to accomplish much less with more.
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Yes, the original load is what I will be looking for when I load for the fellow. The old Speer manuals had quite a few reduced loads with IMR4198, but as I mentioned I have H4198, so we will see how that works out. The 220's will be for Bison and I am looking for somewhere close to 2600fps. It will be late November so the temperature will get quite cold, hence my reluctance to use RL22. I've loaded some with IMR7828 and will do a few more with H4831SC.
 
...knew a woman in montana who shot elk with a .243 out of a weatherby for 30 years...go shoot animal...
 
Well guys, I think the original 30-06 powder was Laflin and Rand .30 Caliber Smokeless, the Improved Military Rifle powders came later.
 
Harvesting a big animal is like lovin' a big woman, It's best not to be under gunned to ensure adequate penetration.
 
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