.270 vs .280

Which do you prefer?

  • Total voters
    436
I hear the clicking of a lock for this thread.

"Idiots", "Ignorant", and "retards" are not words I would choose to describe the experienced reloaders who have responded here. Surprised you are still with us Canuck325.

When you are holding what is left of your stock in your hands be thankfull you can still see the damge.

Back on my ignore list.

Take Care

Bob
 
Canuck525 said:
Any seasoned reloader knows the reloading manuals are just a guide.
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Comments like this scare me:eek: They list MAX loads for a reason and to suggest they are just guidelines is irresponsible IMO. If you have someone with very little reloading experience and they read nonsense like that from a supposedly "experienced" reloader they may actually take that as truth...
 
mcrae555

I am surprised the mods don't edit that kind of comment out of a post. As you say inexperienced reloaders may not realize how stupid such a comment as the one he posted is.

Take Care

Bob
 
This thread was started way back in Dec of 2004, Wow, I'm surprised it's lasted this long?

Heres my lowdown on the 280 Rem.

It's better than a 270, no doubt, sorry all you 270 lovers, but only by it's virtues of able to shoot/ load heavier bullets in the old re necked 30-06 brass, including the longer barrels they come with and increasing velocity by about 60 to 120 fps, and maybe a bit more accurate depending on who's hands they're in?.

Ontario hunters are screwed up because we have this nutz law about .277 max diameter for small game, and the .284 does not fit in legally.:(

For the average working stiff, they (we) all have this grandiose idea (Government induced?) that the 270 is all we need to own, to gett'er done for all game.

The end all to big game caliber needs.

Wrong.

We all know better!.
30 cal or bigger is where it's at, for the bigger, tougher, big game, no questions asked.:cool:

Had the .280 emerged before or soon after the 270, instead of 20 or 30 years later, this wouldn't even be a question cause all those who own 270's would own .280's.

And yes Jack was wrong...:)
 
I FINALLY responded in a rude fashion ONLY after a number of repeatedly taunting posts. I have been reading through a number of threads on this site and this taunting and trolling seems quite common and acceptable here. I have not seen this sort of trolling and taunting on the american sites where I participate.I have no doubt you have many great members here but you certainly have your fair share of the other types which seem to go unchecked...Good luck gentlemen....
 
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Canuck525 said:
I FINALLY responded in a rude fashion ONLY after a number of repeatedly taunting posts. I have been reading through a number of threads on this site and this taunting and trolling seems quite common and acceptable here. I have not seen this sort of trolling and taunting on the american sites where I participate.I have no doubt you have many great members here but you certainly have your fair share of the other types which seem to go unchecked...Good luck gentlemen....
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:stfun00b:

Actually you started this little go round with your bulls**t about your many years of reloading experience and by publishing loads well over the listed maximum. When you were challenged you started name calling.

Do us at least one small favour before you are relegated to the ignore lists. Where do you shoot? Because I sure as hell don't want to be on the firing line beside you.
 
Actually Canuck325 is quite right, they are only guides. If your going to get into reloading you better take his comment seriously. Yes there are quite a few manual loads that are well under YOUR guns safe limits, there are also a few loads that are OVER safe limit. I've had my Ruger 77 bolt freeze with max loads from one manual that I took for granted would be good. Work safe & don't take anything for granted, even from a Manual! Always check a load against a couple other manuals to make sure their in order!
 
senior said:
Actually Canuck325 is quite right, they are only guides. If your going to get into reloading you better take his comment seriously. Yes there are quite a few manual loads that are well under YOUR guns safe limits, there are also a few loads that are OVER safe limit. I've had my Ruger 77 bolt freeze with max loads from one manual that I took for granted would be good. Work safe & don't take anything for granted, even from a Manual! Always check a load against a couple other manuals to make sure their in order!
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Good point...:)
 
senior said:
Actually Canuck325 is quite right, they are only guides. If your going to get into reloading you better take his comment seriously. Yes there are quite a few manual loads that are well under YOUR guns safe limits, there are also a few loads that are OVER safe limit. I've had my Ruger 77 bolt freeze with max loads from one manual that I took for granted would be good. Work safe & don't take anything for granted, even from a Manual! Always check a load against a couple other manuals to make sure their in order!
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I think you missed the point of the debate. If you look at his velocity claim then it is clear that he MUST be way over the maximum SAAMI limit for that cartridge.

Nobody who has significant reloading experience will argue with the fact that different rifles will have different maximum charges. Some will take a higher maximum charge because they have more throat erosion, but that throat errosion also lowers pressure.

Like I said, there is no free lunch. Higher pressure = higher velocity. That is why, imo, a chronograph is a very important tool for load developement.

Let me give you an example. If you look at the reloading manual you will see a charge for a given bullet, and a velocity. Now the velocity can and will vary for a number of reasons - barrel length, altitude etc. Even the twist rate affects the velocity.

The Nosler manual says 56.0g of RL 22 is the max charge and it gives 2982fps out of the 26" test barrel.

Now you may have a 24" tube on your rifle, and it's chamber and throat will be different than the Nosler test rifle. But let's say you start at 52.0gr and work your way up, watching the cases and the other signs, in addition to the chronograph readings.

You may get pressure signs before you hit the max charge or velocity listed, then stop. You may have no pressure signs at the max charge, and you may have not reached the velocity listed under max charge (taking into account the shorter barrel). The you can make a decision on what to do next.

BUT my opinion is that if you reach the velocity listed under the max charge you are at, or very close to maximum SAAMI pressure! It doesn't matter what the charge is (it could be lower than the listed maximum).

Since Canuck claims at least 175fps faster than the max velocity, he must be far over SAAMI pressure limits. SAAMI pressure limits are there for a reason. Sure there is a safety buffer, but that buffer is there for a reason: SAFETY.
 
1899 said:
I think you missed the point of the debate. If you look at his velocity claim then it is clear that he MUST be way over the maximum SAAMI limit for that cartridge.

Nobody who has significant reloading experience will argue with the fact that different rifles will have different maximum charges. Some will take a higher maximum charge because they have more throat erosion, but that throat errosion also lowers pressure.

Like I said, there is no free lunch. Higher pressure = higher velocity. That is why, imo, a chronograph is a very important tool for load developement.

Let me give you an example. If you look at the reloading manual you will see a charge for a given bullet, and a velocity. Now the velocity can and will vary for a number of reasons - barrel length, altitude etc. Even the twist rate affects the velocity.

The Nosler manual says 56.0g of RL 22 is the max charge and it gives 2982fps out of the 26" test barrel.

Now you may have a 24" tube on your rifle, and it's chamber and throat will be different than the Nosler test rifle. But let's say you start at 52.0gr and work your way up, watching the cases and the other signs, in addition to the chronograph readings.

You may get pressure signs before you hit the max charge or velocity listed, then stop. You may have no pressure signs at the max charge, and you may have not reached the velocity listed under max charge (taking into account the shorter barrel). The you can make a decision on what to do next.

BUT my opinion is that if you reach the velocity listed under the max charge you are at, or very close to maximum SAAMI pressure! It doesn't matter what the charge is (it could be lower than the listed maximum).

Since Canuck claims at least 175fps faster than the max velocity, he must be far over SAAMI pressure limits. SAAMI pressure limits are there for a reason. Sure there is a safety buffer, but that buffer is there for a reason: SAFETY.
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You make valid points but the sami was developed for a very low cup since the 280 was first introduced as a semi and pump.So of course many reloaders will be over saami for this cartridge.The 280 also has greater case capacity then the 270 and 3006 as the shoulder is forward. I am in no way implying someone should follow any load data blindly. I work up a load and watch for signs of pressure. The BIGGEST risk in reloading in my opinion is a case failure. Careful case measurement is the only way for the average joe to check this along with other visible and tactile observations.
ie, there are many many wildcat cartridges. Guys usually develope loads for these by the above methods as no reloading data even exsists for them.

I truly regret even mentioning anything about this as I wasn't anticipating such adverse reaction.
I apologize to any I may have offended.
 
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Canuck525 said:
You make valid points but the sami was developed for a very low cup since the 280 was first introduced as a semi and pump.So of course many reloaders will be over saami for this cartridge.The 280 also has greater case capacity then the 270 and 3006 as the shoulder is forward. I am in no way implying someone should follow any load data blindly. I work up a load and watch for signs of pressure. The BIGGEST risk in reloading in my opinion is a case failure. Careful case measurement is the only way for the average joe to check this along with other visible and tactile observations.
ie, there are many many wildcat cartridges. Guys usually develope loads for these by the above methods as no reloading data even exsists for them.

I truly regret even mentioning anything about this as I wasn't anticipating such adverse reaction.
I apologize to any I may have offended.
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I'm not trying to continue an argument, but case failure is a lesser worry, action failure is far more concerning. I've had case failures, in a properly designed rifle, they are manageable. Action failure, that kills people, and the risk of it doesn't show up on your brass. You simply reach a point where the materials in your action yield or fail, without prior warning frequently. I cringe to think of 60+grs of Re22 in a .280 and the poor unknowing people next to you at the range, it could be me or my spouse for instance. I hope you do all your shooting off range, and by yourself. There's just no need to stuff that much powder into a .280.
 
I spoke to a remington rep a few years ago. He told me all remington rifles are proof fired at 80 000. You typically get a sticky bolt at around 75 000 according to people in the industry. I also spoke to a very very well known bullet manufacturer about 15 years ago before the net was really accessible to the masses.In his opinion in order to blow up a rifle action it would have to be a very serious mistake like an obstructed barrel, using 3031 instead of 4831 in a 7mm rem mag or it would have to be a deliberate act. He was in the business for many many years and had never even seen or heard of a MODERN rifle action blowing up ( that was before info was available on the net of course).I have seen tests where actions have been deliberately blown. If I remember correctly it takes approx 125 000 to blow a remington rifle action ( not barrel) and weatherby rifle action is substantially stronger.
I am sure people have blown rifle actions but if you are working up a load slowly and carefully a brass case will ALWAYS ALWAYS fail before a hardened steel action. I have NEVER had a case failure.
Incidently I have my own range out to about 850 yards which 3 of us use.We all use similar reloading techniques for our hunting loads. I am the least experienced of us and none of us has ever had a case failure or any mishap. Between us we have in excess of 100( more like 110-115) years experience in reloading.There must be some truth in what I am saying or surely one of us would have had a case failure or something.
 
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Canuck525 said:
I spoke to a remington rep a few years ago. He told me all remington rifles are proof fired at 80 000. You typically get a sticky bolt at around 75 000 according to people in the industry. I also spoke to a very very well known bullet manufacturer about 15 years ago before the net was really accessible to the masses.In his opinion in order to blow up a rifle action it would have to be a very serious mistake like an obstructed barrel, using 3031 instead of 4831 in a 7mm rem mag or it would have to be a deliberate act. He was in the business for many many years and had never even seen or heard of a MODERN rifle action blowing up ( that was before info was available on the net of course).I have seen tests where actions have been deliberately blown. If I remember correctly it takes approx 125 000 to blow a remington rifle action ( not barrel) and weatherby rifle action is substantially stronger.
I am sure people have blown rifle actions but if you are working up a load slowly and carefully a brass case will ALWAYS ALWAYS fail before a hardened steel action. I have NEVER had a case failure.
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I believe this to be true. In error a few years ago I loaded and fired a 260 reminton round in a 25-284, the case split, the primer was of course gone, it took me quite a bit of work to open the action and remove the case. After cleanup and be checked the gun was put back together and shoots really sub moa groups to this day. I bet the pressure was way up there.
 
Experience is a great teacher, but sometimes our knowledge is flawed by that experience. Perhaps by luck alone we have never been exposed to a particular problem that could result in disastrous consequences. While I tend to believe that you have a number of years of reloading under you belt, I find it astonishing that you have not considered the serious implications of loading to excessively high pressures.

I don't know what you expect from a rifle failure, but here's one possibility. It is possible that one piece of brass is a bit weaker than the rest of that lot number. At normal pressures it would be fine, but upon firing that cartridge at very high pressure the primer pocket opens up and the propellant gasses quickly erode the brass around the flash hole enlarging it to the size of the primer pocket, which allows the gas to enter the firing pin hole in the bolt face. The firing pin hole begins to erode as does the firing pin itself, and gas then enters the bolt body. The bolt body is designed to deal with this and dumps the gas into the magazine well, blowing open and ruining the floor plate, but preventing serious injury to the shooter or bystanders. As a result you have perhaps $500 damage to your action, simply because you exceeded the design parameters of the brass. Nothing else has been accomplished. It has not made you a better handloader, but it has ruined a good rifle.

Choosing a rifle chambered for a reasonably loaded cartridge with more powder capacity will result in higher velocity. I see no reason to attempt to get .280 velocities from a 7X57, or 7mm STW velocities from a .280.

Here again my experience is at odds with yours, because I have found that the increase in velocity decreases once optimal pressure has been exceeded. For example, lets assume you are working up your loads in 1 gr increments. As you approach optimal pressure, you had perhaps a 40 fps gain in velocity for several increases over the previous loads, but then the next increase only shows a 20 fps gain, and the increase of the next load is only 15 fps and results in a sticky bolt. Perhaps there is a big jump in velocity beyond that point, but I have never attempted to exceed what I consider fair warning from my rifle.
 
Quote 1899 "I think you missed the point of the debate. If you look at his velocity claim then it is clear that he MUST be way over the maximum SAAMI limit for that cartridge."

I neither defend nor support Canuck525. A few years ago I was shooting 175gn @ 2900fps out of an old mauser 7x57. A competative shooter was astounded & checked all my brass & said he wouldn't have believed it.
My neighbours 270 consistanly shoots the same bullet weight 50-100 fps faster than my max loaded 280....TILL he puts his round thru MY chrony, then he's instantly 50-100fps slower. Point is to many variables to disqualify Canucks statements.
I know the fastest I have shoot my 280 with useable hunting loads are 139 horns @ 3150fps, but then I don't have every top notch brand of powder on the market either.

Choosing a rifle chambered for a reasonably loaded cartridge with more powder capacity will result in higher velocity. I see no reason to attempt to get .280 velocities from a 7X57, or 7mm STW velocities from a .280.

The voice of reason...thank-you Boomer :)
 
Last time I checked a 7mm stw shoots at a hell of a lot higher velocity than a 280. Where is he coming up with a 7mm stw shooting a 150 grain bullet at 3150? Perhaps he meant to say factory 7mm rem mag ammo.
 
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