Right. But if you can hit 3200 in a 270win (which, btw guys have been hitting 3200fps for years using older powders like 4831), then logically the bigger case of the WSM can go even faster. Nosler's max load with a 130gr pill is 3396fps with RL22 in the WSM.
.270 Win vs .270 WSM
- Thread starter kwmack
- Start date
Right. But if you can hit 3200 in a 270win (which, btw guys have been hitting 3200fps for years using older powders like 4831), then logically the bigger case of the WSM can go even faster. Nosler's max load with a 130gr pill is 3396fps with RL22 in the WSM.
I forgot to mention that a 150 grain SST pushed to 3150 fps still has 1200 f.lbs of energy at 750 yards. I doubt any person would need more that that for deer....At some point we have to ask ourselves why we need more speed and why we need magnums for deer.
Sure, but you could just as easily say that level of performance is unnecessary too - who shoots game at 750yds? The Federal Premium Trophy Copper factory ammo w/130 gr pill starting at 3060fps still has 1273ft/lbs @500yds, which is already a shot that is too far for 99% of hunters.
Hell, 7mm08 and 308 can both hold over 1100ft/lbs out to 500yds with the right bullets (say, 140gr and 165gr Trophy Copper respectively), so why do we need long action calibers at all? The answer is we probably don't, especially for deer hunting.. But luckily we are not strictly bound to such needs.
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Yes, that make complete sense: higher case capacity, higher maximum pressure, better case design but no difference in ballistics...
My experience is that 270 WSM is laser accurate with a high velocity 140gr load like a Nosler Accubond at 3200fps.
It's an excellent combination of flat trajectory, moderate recoil, great accuracy and good killing power.
10 years ago, 270 WSM 140gr Accubond at 3200fps was the fashionable load for elk at long range.
That doesn't seem like a reasonable comparison. What is the likelihood that RL26 is the ideal powder for both cartridges given their differences in case capacity? I'd think pretty low?
Nosler lists 3155fps w/RL22, and 3187 w/MAGPRO as max velocities in the WSM, so focusing on RL26 is misleading if your point is to represent maximum performance of both cartridges as a fair comparison between the two.
270 Win - case capacity 4.15ml 65 000 psi max pressure
270 WSM - case capacity 4.87ml 65 000 psi max pressure
So 4.87ml / 4.15ml = 1.173 -> 17.3% greater case capacity -> 17.3% greater energy -> 8% greater muzzle velocity with greater accuracy
(because of short fat cartridge design - look up 6mm PPC).
Taken for IMR load data with Hogdon powder with a 140gr bullet:
270 Win - 2950fps with a 140gr bullet
270 WSM- 3150fps with a 140gr bullet <-- a 7% velocity difference as expected.
Also, 270 Win like 243 Win is difficult to load for accuracy because of case design while 270 WSM and 300 WSM are very easy to load for accuracy.
Cartridge : .270 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .277, 130, Nosler AccuBond 54987
Useable Case Capaci: 60.375 grain H2O = 3.920 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 64000 psi, or 441 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 110 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
7 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 90%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant Reloder-26 106.7 63.8 4.14 3302 100.0 64000 12764 1.065 ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP 107.4 62.4 4.04 3268 99.4 64000 12838 1.065 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N560 109.1 62.1 4.02 3251 96.8 64000 12990 1.063 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 70 103.8 61.5 3.99 3249 99.6 64000 12451 1.056 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 60 97.6 57.0 3.69 3244 100.0 64000 11479 1.059 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate MAGPRO 109.3 64.7 4.19 3237 95.3 64000 12981 1.069 ! Near Maximum !
Please notre speed with RL26 and compare with max speeds from wsm. There is no need to argue. Nowadays there is no advantage for 270 wsm over the 270.
Bullet : .277, 130, Nosler AccuBond 54987
Useable Case Capaci: 60.375 grain H2O = 3.920 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 64000 psi, or 441 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 110 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
7 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 90%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant Reloder-26 106.7 63.8 4.14 3302 100.0 64000 12764 1.065 ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP 107.4 62.4 4.04 3268 99.4 64000 12838 1.065 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N560 109.1 62.1 4.02 3251 96.8 64000 12990 1.063 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 70 103.8 61.5 3.99 3249 99.6 64000 12451 1.056 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 60 97.6 57.0 3.69 3244 100.0 64000 11479 1.059 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate MAGPRO 109.3 64.7 4.19 3237 95.3 64000 12981 1.069 ! Near Maximum !
Please notre speed with RL26 and compare with max speeds from wsm. There is no need to argue. Nowadays there is no advantage for 270 wsm over the 270.
prairie lover
CGN Regular
- Location
- southern MB
why is this old wives tale still alive? the faster you drive a bullet the more it expands. the slower the less it expands.
And 130 SP, just for confirmation, from a 22 inch barrel:
1. Cartridge : .270 Win
2. Bullet : .277, 130, Hornady SP 2730
3. Useable Case Capaci: 63.503 grain H2O = 4.123 cm³
4. Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.285 inch = 83.44 mm
5. Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
6.
7. Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
8. Matching Maximum Pressure: 65000 psi, or 448 MPa
9. or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 104 %
10. These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
11. C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
12. loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
13. that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
14. and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
15. USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
16.
17. 13 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 80%. These powders have been skipped.
18. Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
19. % Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
20. --------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
21. Alliant RL26 100.5 63.3 4.10 3240 100.0 65000 14550 0.977 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
22. IMR 7828ssc 102.2 61.4 3.98 3176 96.4 65000 14284 0.969 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
23. AA MagPro 103.5 64.4 4.17 3164 94.1 65000 14678 1.002 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
24. Alliant RL22 103.5 61.3 3.97 3162 97.7 65000 14249 0.983 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
1. Cartridge : .270 Win
2. Bullet : .277, 130, Hornady SP 2730
3. Useable Case Capaci: 63.503 grain H2O = 4.123 cm³
4. Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.285 inch = 83.44 mm
5. Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
6.
7. Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
8. Matching Maximum Pressure: 65000 psi, or 448 MPa
9. or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 104 %
10. These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
11. C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
12. loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
13. that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
14. and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
15. USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
16.
17. 13 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 80%. These powders have been skipped.
18. Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
19. % Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
20. --------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
21. Alliant RL26 100.5 63.3 4.10 3240 100.0 65000 14550 0.977 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
22. IMR 7828ssc 102.2 61.4 3.98 3176 96.4 65000 14284 0.969 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
23. AA MagPro 103.5 64.4 4.17 3164 94.1 65000 14678 1.002 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
24. Alliant RL22 103.5 61.3 3.97 3162 97.7 65000 14249 0.983 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
How does this show the Win can match the WSM exactly?
Nosler lists damn near 3400fps for a 130gr load in the WSM. Is 3396 greater than 3302 or not? (and I bet quickload will give you a result thats even faster than 3396 if you run the same numbers for the WSM case, considering Nosler lists a max velocity of 3158, or nearly 250fps LESS for the Win.)
Its not rocket science. Bigger case=more powder=more velocity.
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Half the barrel life? Says who?
If you're going to hotrod the 270win to wsm velocities you're going to get similar barrel life from both.
And again, you're cherry picking your data and comparing apples to oranges. You're purposefully making the wsm look less capable than it is.
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- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
I wonder if that doesn't miss the point. If the idea is to provide a short, lightweight rifle that equals the performance of a long barrel .270, that's where the .270 WSM finds its niche. That's not to say that a long barrel rifle can't be chambered for the .270 WSM, but then a longer cartridge like the .27 Nosler, could be paired with a 26" barrel if greater performance is desired.
- Location
- Vancouver Island, BC
I agree. The 270 win works great in a 22'' barrel, whereas the wsm needs 24" to really maximize its potential. If you run the wsm out of a 22" barrel, which a large percentage of them seem to be, the difference in performance will be pretty negligible. For rifles that use only one action length for all their chamberings, it doesn't really seem to make sense to pick the WSM.
In the sako 85 for example, the 270 win rifle weighs the same as the 270 wsm but the wsm has a longer barrel (24.X vs 22.X in) and a longer overall length.
The boxes of double tap ammo that I have sitting here (they are pretty bang on the advertised velocity):
270 win
130 gr nosler accubond: 3100 fps / 22in bbl
150 gr nosler partition: 2925 fps / 22in bbl
270 WSM
130 gr nosler accubond: 3300 fps / 24in bbl
150 gr nosler partition: 3150 fps / 24in bbl
I've only used this ammo (out of a 24.Xin wsm and 22.x in 270 win) so I can't comment on the other bullet types or weights, but the 130 gr is definitely more than enough for deer. The increased speed of the wsm makes a difference in wounding but it's absolutely not required.
doctor_meltdown,
I fully agree. Careful handloading will bring the speed difference even smaller. In a recent article in handloader magazine, John Barsness tested RL 26 in a 270 win. He was able to get 3077 for Accubond LR 150 and 3079 with ELDX 145 with a Mossberg Revere 22 in. He was also able to get 3165 with Hunter and Federal Fusion. I was able to get 3150 with 150 SST and 3170 with ELDX using 59.5 grains of RL26 from my Sako 22.4 in. Alliant recommend a max of 60.8 for a 150 grain.
The newness here is the use of magnum powder in the 270 win. The 270 wsm always did. What was discovered was that the 270 win could be pushed faster with these powders and reach or equal wsm speeds at equal barrel length.
Now we come to the choice of caliber. The 270 win is widely available. In my nearest Bass Pro shop and Canadian Tire I can not find a single wsm ammo box. The 270 can, if handloaded carefully and if really needed (I wonder when), almost reach or equal wsm speeds, using 7-8 grains less powder. So why would someone choose a 270 wsm nowadays? The question is of reasonable preference. If I want one rifle, I see no reason why i should have a 270 wsm, but I see a thousand reasons to have (and I do have) a 270 win.
10 deer and 1 elk all shot with a 270WSM tikka. Only shot once (140 accubond) Only reason I don't have it payed it forward to my son in law a newbie wanted him to start with something solid.280 AI custom now why cuz I wanted one
That’s the answer I was looking for. I bought one not really knowing for sure it’s potential.
I’m a hunter and pay an occasional range visit. I’ve never worn out a barrel in my life, so no worries there.
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