30-06 1925 International Match Load.

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bearhunter

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By today's standards this would still be a good load with scoped rifles for most folks

In 1925 this load shot consistently into sub ONE INCH ten shot groups at 300 meters, from Match tuned 1903 Springfield rifles with loads from Frankford Arsenal.

They used special National Match Cases, 172 grain FMJ, 7 caliber ogives, 9-degree boat tail bullets with ''gilding metal"

The powder they used is long gone, 37.6 grains of HiVel No2, lot 1488, blend #9.

Muzzle velocity from the Springfield standard profile, air gauged barrel was 2250fps.

Breech pressure was 29,545 POUNDS/sq inch.

Cartridges were loaded between 3.390-3.400 inches as opposed to the issue service cartridge 3.300 =-.005 inches.

The accuracy was phenomenal considering the rifles wore iron sights.

The mean radious C to C was .844 inches at 300meters. Figure of merit was 2.11 inches at 300 meters.

This particular lot of ammo was spectacular for the time, equipment and components available at the time

Frankford Arsenal continued to produce this cartridge, with this load, for several years. However, the accuracy considered to be acceptable in properly maintained rilfes with excellent bores was "less than THREE inches at 300 meters" or sub ONE MINUTE OF ANGLE.

I've used this load myself, both with HiVel2, which I haven't seen for over 50 years and it's successor SuperVel, which had to be tweeked to keep the velocities in the 2200fps range and harmonics similar.

What's really interesting about this load is that it was very LOT SPECIFICALLY SENSETIVE.

Frankford Arsenals tried to duplicate Lot 1488, blend #9 as closely as possible but the components used to make the powder, albeit extremely close, just weren't the same and the consistent pressure curve/harmonics was never quite the same.

In one of the books I read on this load, there are several, primers were a very real concern as well.

This is very telling, and in many situations the same issues apply today, even though we're blessed with MATCH QUALITY COMPONENTS, which we use in our hunting rifles, with little thought about how good they are.

I don't know how many books were written about this load, but the nit-picking details will drive you bonkers if you try to define or memorize them all or their real pertinence.

I thought I would toss this out there for those interested in such things, and how good the shooters were a century ago with match rifles that didn't come close to what we often buy off the shelf today's standards.
 
In other posts, I've alluded to having Dominion Cartridge Co of Canada 30-06 cases with well over 100 reloads on them.

One batch of 100, which I still have prepped and ready for priming/reloading has close to 200 reloads on them using the above load or a duplicate load with more modern powders.

They do require annealing after 6-8 firings but I've never had to trim any of them after the initial stretching and trimming.

They will very likely outlast my shooting career and me as well.
 
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yomomma said:
I recieved a whole bunch of Lake City 30-06 brass that I have yet to get to.

When you see cheap but really good brass, you grab it. Had dreams one day to get a Garand. Things have changed
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Not knocking Garands at all, I've had several, chambered for the venerable 30-06 and the 7.62Nato, as well as a hole to dump a lot of cash into, one chambered for the 6.5x55 Swede.

Garands require decent brass but very few of them require Lake City Match brass.

I still have a half case of Lake City Match 7.62Nato, which came with a NM marked Garand I was talked out of. I use it exclusively in a Rem 700SA.

Garands can not only be hard on brass but they tend to throw it a long way.
 
I would have to dig up my notes to check on exact powder charge but not that long ago I through a load together just to shoot up some odds and ends that I had laying around. So 2400 powder with a 220 rn Hornaday. Basically a cast bullet velocity load in my 30-06.
I shoot alot offhand at 100yards. I wasn't sure of where load would hit so I shot from bench at paper target. I couldn't believe it. One ragged hole 5 shot group!
Gun usually shot about one and a eighth 5 shot groups with normal hunting loads and jacketed bullets.
Sr 4759 used to be another great cast bullet 30-06 powder.
I still have and shoot dominion brass in 30wcf. When I was a kid I don't remember dominion or imperial factory ammo as being all that great. In 300savage the 180 grain factory dominion loads didn't expand on deer.
Used to get duds with the factory 30wcf with imperial or dominion.
 
bearhunter said:
By today's standards this would still be a good load with scoped rifles for most folks

In 1925 this load shot consistently into sub ONE INCH ten shot groups at 300 meters, from Match tuned 1903 Springfield rifles with loads from Frankford Arsenal.

They used special National Match Cases, 172 grain FMJ, 7 caliber ogives, 9-degree boat tail bullets with ''gilding metal"

The powder they used is long gone, 37.6 grains of HiVel No2, lot 1488, blend #9.

Muzzle velocity from the Springfield standard profile, air gauged barrel was 2250fps.

Breech pressure was 29,545 POUNDS/sq inch.

Cartridges were loaded between 3.390-3.400 inches as opposed to the issue service cartridge 3.300 =-.005 inches.

The accuracy was phenomenal considering the rifles wore iron sights.

The mean radious C to C was .844 inches at 300meters. Figure of merit was 2.11 inches at 300 meters.

This particular lot of ammo was spectacular for the time, equipment and components available at the time

Frankford Arsenal continued to produce this cartridge, with this load, for several years. However, the accuracy considered to be acceptable in properly maintained rilfes with excellent bores was "less than THREE inches at 300 meters" or sub ONE MINUTE OF ANGLE.

I've used this load myself, both with HiVel2, which I haven't seen for over 50 years and it's successor SuperVel, which had to be tweeked to keep the velocities in the 2200fps range and harmonics similar.

What's really interesting about this load is that it was very LOT SPECIFICALLY SENSETIVE.

Frankford Arsenals tried to duplicate Lot 1488, blend #9 as closely as possible but the components used to make the powder, albeit extremely close, just weren't the same and the consistent pressure curve/harmonics was never quite the same.

In one of the books I read on this load, there are several, primers were a very real concern as well.

This is very telling, and in many situations the same issues apply today, even though we're blessed with MATCH QUALITY COMPONENTS, which we use in our hunting rifles, with little thought about how good they are.

I don't know how many books were written about this load, but the nit-picking details will drive you bonkers if you try to define or memorize them all or their real pertinence.

I thought I would toss this out there for those interested in such things, and how good the shooters were a century ago with match rifles that didn't come close to what we often buy off the shelf today's standards.
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Thank you! Very interesting and helpful.
 
Yes, you can duplicate this load. HiVel morphed into IMR3031 and some folks use IMR4895 data to replace it.

I use IMR3031.

IMR3031 is slightly different and often finicky between lots, just like its predecessor HiVel.

You likely will be able to get similar accuracy out of tuned rifles with 1-10 twist rates and 175 or 180 SPBT bullets and 42.0 grains of IMR3031 over Standard Large Rifle primers, in Match cases, which usually are heavier because they have thicker webs and sidewalls.

Once I ran out of HiVel and Super Vel, I switched to IMR4895 but later went to IMR3031.

I would think it would depend on which an individual rifle likes best.

One other thing to remember, the rifles used back in 1925 were all SPRINGFIELD 1903 types and all of the barrels had Milspec profiles.

I would suggest my load as a "starting load" and if you're worried about the air space between the powder column and the bullet base, fill it with Dacron, which is what I do. I only use the Dacron to keep the powder column together, rather than spread out along the case, so it burns more consistently between rounds.

Most manuals give you minimum loads for commercial hunting brass cases, which are lighter.
 
Valiant said:
I would have to dig up my notes to check on exact powder charge but not that long ago I through a load together just to shoot up some odds and ends that I had laying around. So 2400 powder with a 220 rn Hornaday. Basically a cast bullet velocity load in my 30-06.
I shoot alot offhand at 100yards. I wasn't sure of where load would hit so I shot from bench at paper target. I couldn't believe it. One ragged hole 5 shot group!
Gun usually shot about one and a eighth 5 shot groups with normal hunting loads and jacketed bullets.
Sr 4759 used to be another great cast bullet 30-06 powder.
I still have and shoot dominion brass in 30wcf. When I was a kid I don't remember dominion or imperial factory ammo as being all that great. In 300savage the 180 grain factory dominion loads didn't expand on deer.
Used to get duds with the factory 30wcf with imperial or dominion.
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Dominion Cartridge Co ammunition could be hit and miss as far as bullet performance on game went.

However, their cartridge cases were to die for. They loaded ammunition such as 43 Mauser, 6.5x55, 6.5x51 and several others that were not loaded by anyone else in North America.
 
bearhunter said:
You likely will be able to get similar accuracy out of tuned rifles with 1-10 twist rates and 175 or 180 SPBT bullets and 42.0 grains of IMR3031 over Standard Large Rifle primers, in Match cases, which usually are heavier because they have thicker webs and sidewalls.
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Same weight of 4895? How do you think this would do in a Garand? I like keeping the loads below max to avoid beating the rifle up any more than necessary, so this is right in my wheelhouse.


Mark
 
Mark, think about what you just asked.

The same weight of 4895? will be a safe load, but it won't work in your Garand.

This is a "low power, low pressure" load, designed for a bolt action rifle with a Milspec barrel with a different profile and heavier.

Your Garand may shoot it quite well, but be prepared to have to work the action manually or put up with stove piping and damaged cases.

This is NOT a load developed for semi auto firearms and the function will likely be abysmal, unless you want to make all sorts of alterations to the rifle to make it work exclusively with this load.
 
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bearhunter said:
Mark, think about what you just asked.

The same weight of 4895? will be a safe load, but it won't work in your Garand.

This is a "low power, low pressure" load, designed for a bolt action rifle with a Milspec barrel with a different profile and heavier.

Your Garand may shoot it quite well, but be prepared to have to work the action manually or put up with stove piping and damaged cases.

This is NOT a load developed for semi auto firearms and the function will likely be abysmal, unless you want to make all sorts of alterations to the rifle to make it work exclusively with this load.
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When I started loading for the Garand I tried loading way low, down at least as low as your load and the rifle never stopped cycling properly. I wouldn't be surprised at all if it works with this load as well.

I have some 4895, which is why I asked about it instead of IMR3031. Maybe I will load a few and see how they shoot, just for S&G. A cheaper load that shoots well is always a great thing for range fun.


Mark
 
bearhunter said:
Thanx for that Mark. I'm surprised. My Garands wouldn't cycle with these loads.

I appreciate the info.
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I will load a few and see how they work. It could well be that it doesn't cycle with these, but I'm pretty sure I got down to around 42.0gr of 4064 and that just kept running.

If I remember, I will update here with the results when it's warm enough for me to get out shooting again.


Mark
 
About 20 years ago I was going to straight up trade a Garand for a WWII Colt 1911 with a member of my range.
At that time the 1911 was worth a fair bit more.
We both brought some ammo and let each other shoot the guns.
I was into the trade, but wanted to run 1 more bloc through the M1. Put all 8 rounds into a 2" bull at 100m. I'm not that great with irons, but I took it as a sign I gotta keep this gun lol, so the trade was off.
Problem back then, for semis I just loaded whatever #### I had laying around back then, never wrote down recipes, so I still have no idea what that load was, and it's still very accurate, but I've never shot another group like that with it again lol.
 
I had a couple of cases of the Winchester made M2 Ball "Regulated for Aircraft Machineguns" It was in the regual tan colored 20 round boxes, with a blood red stripe around the middle.

This stuff was loaded for aircraft with machineguns shooting through the propeller and the gun was timed to fire the bullets through the spaces between the blades by a system connected to the engine crankshaft.

The velocity if those cartridges was critical.

The priming on them was unusual in that there was a tube which protruded halfway up into the powder column, and the primer was at the other end.

I can remember people going to great lengths to make up those tubes and solder them into cases, to try and duplicate the system. I believe Herters even offered similar cases at one point.

I used those cartridges exclusively in the Garands I've owned and if the barrels were near excellent, they would shoot into sub two inches consistently.

I sold what I had left to a fellow CGNer, when I thought I was past my Garand urges.

He had the same experience with those cartridges in his Garand. I believe he tried to duplicate the velocities etc, after pulling the bullets on a couple and weighing the powder charges and bullets. I don't think he was able to get as good accuracy with his efforts.

The 1925 load utilized a now defunct powder, unusual 172 grain bullets, with a specific ogive and boat tail taper, which are also no longer available, in air gauged Milspec profile barrels, whose chambers were cut with Palma Match reamers and were hand loaded at the factory.

There are quite a few articles and books written about this load and it's mentioned in a few by Ken Waters.

I have duplicated the velocities in 1903 Springfields, including National Match rifles in excellent condition, using Frankford Arsenal Match brass and ammo, and I can't duplicate the performance witnessed in the original lot.

I will say, I have developed loads with modern components that shoot almost as well, in the same type of rifles, but?????????

I have a match rifle chambered for the 30-06, built on a 98 Mauser action which is scoped and I can get consistent 1 inch groups at 300yds with it, but it has a match grade Hart barrel with a 1-15 twist and won't shoot anything heavier than 150 grains, with a flat base.
 
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bearhunter said:
I had a couple of cases of the Winchester made M2 Ball "Regulated for Aircraft Machineguns" It was in the regual tan colored 20 round boxes, with a blood red stripe around the middle.

This stuff was loaded for aircraft with machineguns shooting through the propeller and the gun was timed to fire the bullets through the spaces between the blades by a system connected to the engine crankshaft.

The velocity if those cartridges was critical.

The priming on them was unusual in that there was a tube which protruded halfway up into the powder column, and the primer was at the other end.

I can remember people going to great lengths to make up those tubes and solder them into cases, to try and duplicate the system. I believe Herters even offered similar cases at one point.

I used those cartridges exclusively in the Garands I've owned and if the barrels were near excellent, they would shoot into sub two inches consistently.

I sold what I had left to a fellow CGNer, when I thought I was past my Garand urges.

He had the same experience with those cartridges in his Garand. I believe he tried to duplicate the velocities etc, after pulling the bullets on a couple and weighing the powder charges and bullets. I don't think he was able to get as good accuracy with his efforts.

The 1925 load utilized a now defunct powder, unusual 172 grain bullets, with a specific ogive and boat tail taper, which are also no longer available, in air gauged Milspec profile barrels, whose chambers were cut with Palma Match reamers and were hand loaded at the factory.

There are quite a few articles and books written about this load and it's mentioned in a few by Ken Waters.

I have duplicated the velocities in 1903 Springfields, including National Match rifles in excellent condition, using Frankford Arsenal Match brass and ammo, and I can't duplicate the performance witnessed in the original lot.

I will say, I have developed loads with modern components that shoot almost as well, in the same type of rifles, but?????????

I have a match rifle chambered for the 30-06, built on a 98 Mauser action which is scoped and I can get consistent 1 inch groups at 300yds with it, but it has a match grade Hart barrel with a 1-15 twist barrel and won't shoot anything heavier than 150 grains, with a flat base.
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What you are describing sounds like what Elmer Keith claimed to have invented and what he called duplex loading. Yes I know now a days duplex is used to describe black powder mixed with smokeless or powder mixing. But years ago duplex is what Elmer called the forward ignition that the tube provides. I think and it's been so long ago since I've read this but I think Elmer was claiming lower pressure and higher velocities with duplex. He couldn't get anyone interested in a commercial production. Sort of like okh
 
I don't know if Mr Keith developed the "forward ignition system" or not.

If you ever met Mr Keith, you would know he was quite outspoken, and if he saw or heard something in passing, then decided to try it for himself, he would take credit for it. Not knowingly of course. But then that's how a lot of good things get invented. Someone has a theory and someone else runs with it to create.

Forward ignition was and maybe still is used in artillery ammunition from 20mm to 155mm, from what I've read, long before Mr Keith developed his cartridges. Whether he "picked up" the idea from that or the earlier BP rounds, I don't know.

The cartridges I had were made during the late 1930s. I know the fellow I sold them to did some research on them.

I'll ask him about them.

It's very possible Mr Keith, who had a lot of contacts, got his hands on some of these cases and developed loads on them, or saw them and made some up.

He was as resourceful as he was "crusty". Amazing man. Grew up hard and never really softened until he was around kids or animals he liked.

If you ever met him, you never forgot him or those "smelly" cigars and "matter of fact" nature.
 
bearhunter said:
I don't know if Mr Keith developed the "forward ignition system" or not.

If you ever met Mr Keith, you would know he was quite outspoken, and if he saw or heard something in passing, then decided to try it for himself, he would take credit for it. Not knowingly of course. But then that's how a lot of good things get invented. Someone has a theory and someone else runs with it to create.

Forward ignition was and maybe still is used in artillery ammunition from 20mm to 155mm, from what I've read, long before Mr Keith developed his cartridges. Whether he "picked up" the idea from that or the earlier BP rounds, I don't know.

The cartridges I had were made during the late 1930s. I know the fellow I sold them to did some research on them.

I'll ask him about them.

It's very possible Mr Keith, who had a lot of contacts, got his hands on some of these cases and developed loads on them, or saw them and made some up.

He was as resourceful as he was "crusty". Amazing man. Grew up hard and never really softened until he was around kids or animals he liked.

If you ever met him, you never forgot him or those "smelly" cigars and "matter of fact" nature.
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I just googled it and this is some of what came up.

Keith: In overbore cartridges, (typically large ratio of powder to caliber), patented this by the way, drill out the primer hole and thread it to accept a threaded copper tube approx 1/2 the length of the cartridge powder area. Then the cartridge is primed normally. Theory is that the front of the powder is ignited first, bullet gets down the bore as the rest of the powder ignites. His experiments showed an increase of velocity for the same load and same pressure. With the 50 BMG, it increased over 200 fps. He had similar increases with other cartridges. It worked well with the 25-06 for example. Kinda makes sense in that the powder near the bullet ignites first and as the bullet heads down the barrel , compression in the barrel allows the rest of the powder (the back 1/2) to burn more efficiently. Keith felt that this would greatly improve the performance of artillery shells but WWII got in the way and the military wanted production versus innovation. At least, that seems to be his slant.
 
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