30-06 for f-class?

...and CyaN1de took 2nd by only 1 point in the WCFCC (900M) using a 6BR against heavy 7's, and pointed 6.5's

If you have an accurate cartridge and gun, it is ALL about the shooter...
 
The only problem with 30-06 is the 30 caliber: you need a really heavy bullet to get the same ballistic coefficient of a 6.5mm or 7mm bullet.

I've included a link to an article from Brian Litz "What's Wrong With .30 Caliber?".
http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/30-caliber-1.php

Mr Litz is Berger Bullet's ballistician and wrote the must read "Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting" available from Mystic Precision.

Alex
 
Obtunded said:
...and CyaN1de took 2nd by only 1 point in the WCFCC (900M) using a 6BR against heavy 7's, and pointed 6.5's

If you have an accurate cartridge and gun, it is ALL about the shooter...
Click to expand...

Disagree. My theory is that with a higher-performing cartridge, CyaN1de might have won 1st place, possibly even by several points. It would depend on the specifics of the match. It would be interesting if he would be willing to comment whether or not one or more of his 4s in that match were "nearly" a 5 (say an inch or less out of the 5-ring); those are the sorts of shots that would be "just in" with a higher performance gun.
 
rnbra-shooter said:
It would be interesting if he would be willing to comment whether or not one or more of his 4s in that match were "nearly" a 5 (say an inch or less out of the 5-ring); those are the sorts of shots that would be "just in" with a higher performance gun.
Click to expand...

I'm sure they would, but Richard is a superb shooter. I don't think it really matters what he uses. I take nothing away from Scott, who won first, but the reality is that very little separated them in ability, Scott is an excellent shooter as well. If you're shooting in conditions where you never hold outside the five ring, what does it matter? If conditions are more than that however, you still need to know how much to adjust.
 
Obtunded said:
I'm sure they would, but Richard is a superb shooter. I don't think it really matters what he uses. I take nothing away from Scott, who won first, but the reality is that very little separated them in ability, Scott is an excellent shooter as well. If you're shooting in conditions where you never hold outside the five ring, what does it matter? If conditions are more than that however, you still need to know how much to adjust.
Click to expand...

Looking purely at the numbers: wind drift error is crosswind error multiplied by wind drift at given range.
This means that 20% larger wind drift give a 20% larger wind drift error.

For example a 1 mph crosswind estimation error means a 7 inch wind drift error for a Berger 6mm 105gr VLD at 3100fps while a Berger 7mm 180gr VLD at 3000fps will only induce a 5.5 inch wind drift error.
Just by using a 7WSM 180gr rather than a 6BR 105gr you'll get a 1.5 inch smaller aiming error guaranteed!

According to Brian Litz simulations, an F-Class 1000yards elite shooter having a +/- 1 mph crosswind error will get a 196-11X score with a 6mm 105 VLD 3100fps but will get a 198-11X score with 7mm 190gr VLD 3000fps.
(Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting, Brian Litz, 1st Ed, p.225)

The only practical limit to this argument is recoil.

Alex
 
In the lousy conditions where Richard was shooting in (heavy variable switching crosswinds) any cartridge was capable of winning if the driver was as good as Richard and Scott were on those days. They could have switched rifles and, if they knew them well, were capable of winning. The cartridge simply didn't matter that weekend, it was a drivers game. However, when the conditions as just slightly worse than light winds and slightly less than a tornado, that is when the high BC bullets will steal you a few points. It is the middle conditions where the high BC bullets come into play. Steve
 
SteveB I was not there. Could you elaborate on why you think that on that particular day ("heavy variable switching crosswinds") that bullet drift was not a significant factor? It could well be that I am not correctly understanding your description of the conditions that day.

(To me, tricky conditions like that seem like precisely the time and place where the lesser drift of a higher performance rifle will over time save a point here and a point there. Even a shooter of great skill is constantly making errors in his wind judgement, it's just that his wind estimation errors are smaller than those of a not-as-skilled shooter. Where the shot lands (and whether or not a point is lost) is very much a function of how small these wind estimation errors are. My point though is that with a given degree of wind reading skill, even an exceptionally high level of wind reading skill, the error on the target is smaller with a higher performance rifle. With the reasonable figures AlexF cites, the same shooter will shoot 21% "better" with a 7mm/180 than with a 6BR/105 - and as soon as the conditions are difficult enough for the 6BR/105 shooter to start to lose points or to start to be at risk of losing points, that is where he is starting to give up points to the score he could be getting were he shooting a 7mm/180)
 
rnbra: When we were shooting the winds were switching extremely fast from one direction to the other. It was not uncommon to have to hold 3-5 minutes on one side of the target then change to 3 minutes on the other. All within a few seconds. The flags weren't indicating anything useable. In fact, the 500 meter pole had 2 flags at one point showing 2 directions. Lane one had a boil coming over the trees and blowing the bullets up and down in addition. There were big dust devils being blown in the parking lot!! In these conditions the driver becomes the important factor and not the cartridge. I didn't say bullet drift isn't important but only in these conditions the driver was more important. For example, 3 of us fired at the same time and missed a wind shift. All of us missed the targets and all of us were using either 7's or 300's with high BC bullets! Richard shot a superb match with his 6mmBR along with Tommy F who was also shooting a 6MMDasher but did the high BC bullets dominate, no they didn't. I think a shooter using 185 Bergers also scored very high out of a 308. I return to my main point is that in the extreme end conditions of perfect and terrible the cartridge doesn't matter. Anything will work. However, in the middle conditions is where the high BC bullets work and really can steal you some points. Steve
 
You guys are talking two different senarios. Dan is correct in slow changing windy conditions concerning shooters with equal ability but when it goes crazy as the conditions SteveB and Obtunded are talking about, the BC of the bullet is not nearly as important as skill. I am sure that most of you have noticed after a match in windy conditions, the top wind readers are ahead of everyone else by a larger margin compared to calm days.
 
Having had a most "enjoyable" weekend in that same storm, I can say I sure missed my 6.5.

The key was finding something(s) to watch that told you the truth about the goofy air - note that all top place shooters had shot or shoot at that range. I think the exception is Gerry from MB.

The flags were useless and with the speed of change, most terrain indicators were too slow.

A few things including mirage helped you dial in the best wind dope guess you could make. This took me a few relays and a lot of dropped points to figure out ( or more accurately, have a better idea about) but by Sunday, I was clawing my way up the points.

So did big boomer help? If you couldn't keep up or see the air, NO. When a missed read is measured in feet, a few inches in reduced drift is not going to help.

I had the pleasure of shooting with some great F Open shooters and did keep up BUT when the gusts were stupid, I bled more points then them.

They would get a 4 where I would be blown into the 3 ring. They could hold 1 ring more out where I had to find a place on the edge of the target.

No matter how good you are, trying to manage drift to a few inches when holding feet off center is simply much harder then holding inches for inches. Sooner or later, you are going to bled points.

So did a boomer offer any advantage to a 223 with a 90gr VLD? YES, IF the boomer driver figured out the wind cues. During one relay, I had some great results and kept up and even went ahead of a 7mm boomer. Then the gusts got stupid again and I was blown wild.

The 7mm scored better simply because it lost less points. Neither of us can actually say we knew all that was going on. Alot of educated guessing and damage control.

I dropped a ton of 4's within 1/2" of the 5 Ring (yes, I can honestly say that). That is so painful and I know if I had just a bit less drift, those shots would have been "just in".

Would better ballistics have helped me? Once I started getting a clue on the air, YOU BETTER BELIEVE IT.

Better ballistics makes wind estimation so much easier. Does it mean you don't need to dope conditions? of course not.

But just out really really sucks.

To those that shot consistently well, that truly is some fine WIND/CONDITION READING. They found their cues early and that kept them in the top spots all weekend.

The rest of us still wonder what the H3LL went on :)

Jerry

PS things aren't good when shooters gladly convert a sighter 4
 
Homestead is no more or less difficult than any other 900M range in Canada, in fact Nokomis SK and St. Charles MB can be far worse.

900m shooting takes a good gun, a good load and a ton of skill.
 
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