30-30 cast bullet problem

diananike

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I just bought a Winchester 94 30-30 and loaded some cast bullet loads for it and was shocked by how inaccurate they were. The load was 11gr of Bluedot behind a wheelweight cast Lee 150gr flatpoint. The groups were atrocious 6 or more inches at 25yds. The cases were full length sized and the bullet was unsized. This same load gave great accuracy in peoples leverguns on Castboolits.net so why didn't it work with mine?
Do you think the bullet was too big and should have been sized?
What diameter does a .309 mold cast at before sizing? I heard that with cast bullets in a .308 gun .311-.312 diameter was a good thing for accuracy anyone have any ideas?
 
i use a 175 gr. flat point Gas check(M. T. Chambers) cast hard (Linotype),sized to .310" at over 2000fps. with no problems and great accuracy. The 30/30 is one of the very best cast bullet guns.
 
What velocity are you getting?

I find WW way to soft and only use them in the antique 6 guns. The rifles probably require experimenting with added tin, try to add some solder and see if it helps.
 
I am using the same mold as you. I always run the bullets through the sizer to take out any imperfections I may have overlooked. I pan lube then tumble lube with LLA & I have good results. I am down to 1" group at 50 yards but still working on shrinking that a bit more. I am also using fast pistol powders so that likely makes a bit of difference as well. The only thing that comes to mind is try a different bullet lube (not sure if this would help), or maybe a different powder. I would also mention to try a different seating depth, but this hasn't ever worked for me so I can't say for sure if it would make any difference.
 
i have shot a variety of cast bullets from a few different 30/30 most gas checked bullets with shot good if you dont drive them to hard , i size to .310 with w.w. and softer lead with no problem, try 7 gr unique with any 170 gr gas checked cast bullet, if that dont work , i have used a 200 lyman bullet with the same powder and load with good results only you must load and shot them as they are long for the action, you dont seat the base lower than the bottom of the case neck ever when shooting cast bullets,
 
You might be better asking this question over on the castboolit forum. A good plinking load is 10 gr of Unique under the 311041 Lyman boolit. I size mine to .309 which works in my gun though I haven't cast the chamber yet to maximize accuracy. I water quench my boolits to harden them for rifle but others just air dry with very good results. Vel with that load is 1450 out of my Win 94.

I have also used WC730 @ 25 gr under the same boolit with decent accuracy Vel is 1975. All my boolits are gas checked.

Take Care

Bob
 
30/30 bullet problem

if you bore is smooth and clean any decent cast bullet 170-150 gr gas check or not, if you dont seat the base of your bullet below the case neck, with 7 grs unique will shoot o.k. at 25 yds , i shoot 100s of them every winter in 45/90, 45/70, 30wcf, .308 win, they all give pretty good acuracy to 100 yds but i am only shooting them at about 1200 fps, they are not as fussy at low velocity, lyman cast bullet loading manual gives lots of loading and shooting info,,wade
 
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Couple of things to mull over to get good accuracy out of a Win 94. I have shot lots of cast in my various 94's and once all the bases are covered they shoot amazingly.

1. What is your over all max length for your ammo/bullet combo? Take a cleaning rod and with the rifle pointed up, #### the hammer (no ammo in it of course) and drop the cleaning rod down the barrel until it stops. At the muzzle make a mark with a felt pen on the cleaning rod. Now take one of your cast bullets and with your finger (this is kind of hard on a lever action) and the rifle pointed down put the bullet into the chamber so that it is just sitting in the barrel. Put your pinky into the chamber to hold the bullet in there, with it still held in place raise the rifle and sit it in your lap and with the cleaning rod again put it down the barrel until it just touches the bullet in the barrel. Have someone mark this line on the cleaning rod. This is your new max cartridge over all length minus 1 thou . Now the problem with any lever is it has to cycle thru the action, a bolt action is a little bit more forgiving in this area. Make up a dummy round with just the cast bullet in an empty case and to the max length that you measured minus 1 thou. Drop the dummy round into the chamber and see if it closes. It should close with maybe a slight amount of force at the end on the lever closing or just like factory ammo, no force at all. If this worked then go to the next step, if it doesn't then put the dummy round back into the press and push the bullet down 1 more thou and repeat until you can chamber correctly. Now that it chambers OK, run it thru the action and see if it binds. Load it into the tube and try and cycle the action. Does it work? If it does stop and you are set, if it doesn't it goes back into the press and pushed into the case another 1 thou until it cycles thru the action with no problems. This is the correct bullet/case dimension for your gun to try and achieve the maximum accuracy. Write this number down so you can refer to it, trust me you will forget. Amazing how some people have never done this with any of there reloads, they just look at the max over all length in the reloading books and adjusted to that measurement. They have spent many hours at the range and finally come up with a combination that works when if they had done this first would have saved countless rounds and time and aggravation.

2. Size of your bullet. Slug the barrel. You can take one of your cast bullets and make it out of pure lead or as near as possible and use it as a slug. I put a pure lead bullet into my vise and squeeze it ever so slightly from nose to base, enough to make it get fatter in the middle, not much but at least a couple of thou over what you expect it to be. I clean the barrel and oil the barrel with lots of oil. Take your fat bullet and put the nose in the barrel and with a plastic hammer (piece of wood hit with a regular hammer is fine) drive the bullet into the barrel. Now drive it down with an old cleaning rod/piece brass dowel etc. Once the bullet drops out into the chamber take it out and measure it. In my 30-30's the dimensions vary from .308-.310 depending on the way they came from the factory. I always go 1 thou over this measurement for my bullet sizing and sometimes 2 thou. I size my 30-30 bullets to .311 and have had no problems at all. If your bullets are dropping from the mold to small for your barrel then you can add little pieces of aluminum foil (you can buy muffler repair tape that is nothing more than aluminum foil at Can. Tire) on each half of the mold to gain as much at 2 thou over diameter without leaving fins on the bullet. It is called beagling a mold. Crank up your casting temp and add more tin/antimony to your mix and this also increases the size of your bullets without beagling sometimes.

With the correct AOL of your ammo and the correct bullet size the next step is the lube on the bullet. Lots of people love Lee Liquid Alox others love Carnuba Red, NRA 50/50 etc. You will have to experiment a bit to find what you like. In general as long as the bullet is sized correctly and not pushed to hard over 2000 fps the lube you choose will work. No leading and your happy.

We have covered 50% of the reasons why your 30-30 wont shoot straight without leaving your bench. Another 30% I would say is the bullet itself. Is it round, flawed, have hidden voids inside it, did you weigh all your bullets and make sure they are within a grain or two either way of the norm. Is the gas check on straight and not cantered. As long as all these things are good it should shoot ok.

The remaining 20% I would say is human error and rifle. How does the rifling look inside the barrel, warn or ok? Have you accurized your 94? Nothing binding on the barrel? Are the barrel bands rock solid and causing your barrel to bind. When you start to shoot and make it hot it will be all over the place if this is not taken care of. There are lots of info on how to do this on the Internet so I won't go to deep but basically you are removing any stress the barrel bands are putting on the barrel by removing a thou or two from the inside of the band ring so that it is still snug but not tight. As you shoot it barrel heats up and if the bands are to tight then the barrel starts to bend and accuracy is out the window.

I bought a used 30-30 off of a neighbor that said it wouldn't hit the broad side of a barn and I could have it for 100 bucks and said I could use it for parts because that is all it was good for. The barrel bands were so tight I literally had to knock them off with a hammer and brass punch, and I wasn't giving them a love tap either to get them off. Once I relieved the added stress , did my usual max over all length with my 311041 bullet and loaded up 9 grn of Unique and worked up to 12 grn, I settled on 11.3 grn. Amazingly I could get .8"/5 shots from the rifle at 50 yards. I in fact took it gopher shooting and had lots of fun with the old 94. I showed him a target from the range that had 10 shoots on it and it measured 1.1" with 8 of the 10 and two flyer's to spoil it to the 1.1".

Once you have taken care of the little things that I have described you will find that the 30-30 will shoot just fine and dandy.
 
Wow awesome post thanks a lot for your help,
I'm gonna get some digital calipers from Lee valley and see where this takes me.
I think its probably just an issue of bullet sizing properly.
 
The variation in weight is not much <4gr so thats not the problem. When I cleaned the gun there was quite a bit of lead come out the end. Maybe a better lube cuz I was just using case sizing lube. What kind of lube would you suggest?
 
diananike: weight variation of near 4 grains is excessive. If the mould cavities are consistent you should be looking for about 1 grain , possibly 2 absolute maximum for that weight of bullet. The variation you suggest leads me to think that the bullets aren't equally filled out or have voids in them both of which lead to inaccurate results.
 
You should get some proper lube, I don't think case sizing lube will cut it as a bullet lube. If you don't have a luber sizer try some Lee ligquid alox tumble lube. I use LBT blue lube, but it is a little harder to come by and you have to have a proper luber sizer to apply it.
 
The variation in weight is not much <4gr so thats not the problem. When I cleaned the gun there was quite a bit of lead come out the end. Maybe a better lube cuz I was just using case sizing lube. What kind of lube would you suggest?
Lube is very likely the problem, case lube won't do it.
You can use a standard bullet alox lube to start. You can get a really cheap kit from Lee to apply it, and a separate sizer that sets up on your press. It does work, quite well in fact. or you can go with a lube/sizer, with heater from RCBS or Lyman, for $, that is a lot faster.

The really really cheap way is the tumble lube (or liquid alox) mentioned above. It works well for most applications, but I've found it leads a bit if you use it on a standard (not a Lee tumble lube design) bullet, at higher velocities.
 
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