30-30 Handi Rifle Loads

[sobo4303]

I just bought a Handi rifle in 30-30. Helluva little shooter. So, to the point, I can shoot all sorts of ballistic tipped bullets and am not in the least limited to the flat nose as this is a break open. That means I can load the ogive closer to the rifling lands which then leaves more room in the case for the powder charge, which since most data is designed for the levers and not the stronger break open actions, would mean that maximum published loads are going to be exceeded.

So as to not completely re-invent the wheel, has anyone out there experimented with a Handi riflle in 30-30 and willing to share comments/notes?

 

['Boo]

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/960939-30-30-Handi-Rifle

 

[H4831]

Not a Handi rifle, but same idea, Savage 340 bolt, means stronger action than run of the mill old 30-30 actions, plus can shoot any shape bullet.
I'm just starting, but I tried some pointed 150 grain.
I quickly discovered that "maximum" loads, as shown in the modern loading books, are well short of delivering the velocities as shown in the loading charts.
As long as I can remember, the ballistic charts for a 30-30 showed a 170 grain bullet as going 2200 fps. Accordingly, virtually every loading chart currently shows their "maximum" load as producing 2200-2220 fps.
Also, for many years, a "standard" load for a 30-30 with 170 grain bullet was given, and widely quoted, as the easy to remember phrase, "33 grains of 3031."
I look up Hodgdon on line and see that with 3031 powder a "maximum" load is 29.2 grains!
Since I am an old school type of guy, I go to the loadings that I cut my teeth on and load 33 grains of 3031 behind the 170 grain bullet in the 30-30. With the 22 inch barrel of the Savage bolt gun, I get right around the 2200 fps, like the charts of fifty or more years ago, state we should be getting. No sign, whatsoever, of excess pressure. Thus, I will likely be working up a maximum load from this.
Interestingly, I had one loaded vintage cartridge, a CIL Imperial 170 grain from about the 1950s. It gave me a velocity of 2206 fps, just like the old ballistic charts claimed!
Now, back to the 150 grain pointed bullets. Hodgdon on line state a maximum of 33.5 grains
Thus, again being a reckless, bad boy type gun nut, I load 35.5 grains of IMR 4895 behind a 150 grain pointed bullet. Again, no sign whatsoever, of excess pressure and the chrono shows 2300 fps. This doesn't appear to me to be a barn burning speed for a 30-30 to be driving a 150 grain bullet.
My load building for the Savage rifle will continue.
And to all you people out there. What I have written here is not to be taken as advice of how you should load your ammunition. You reloader's out there, always go by your loading books and do not try to duplicate loads that I have written here.
I have sated what I have done, which in no way should be interpreted as to what you should do.

 

[sunray]

"...would mean that maximum published loads are going to be exceeded..." Nope.

 

[Johnny_Zanni]

Not a Handi rifle, but same idea, Savage 340 bolt, means stronger action than run of the mill old 30-30 actions, plus can shoot any shape bullet.
I'm just starting, but I tried some pointed 150 grain.
I quickly discovered that "maximum" loads, as shown in the modern loading books, are well short of delivering the velocities as shown in the loading charts.
As long as I can remember, the ballistic charts for a 30-30 showed a 170 grain bullet as going 2200 fps. Accordingly, virtually every loading chart currently shows their "maximum" load as producing 2200-2220 fps.
Also, for many years, a "standard" load for a 30-30 with 170 grain bullet was given, and widely quoted, as the easy to remember phrase, "33 grains of 3031."
I look up Hodgdon on line and see that with 3031 powder a "maximum" load is 29.2 grains!
Since I am an old school type of guy, I go to the loadings that I cut my teeth on and load 33 grains of 3031 behind the 170 grain bullet in the 30-30. With the 22 inch barrel of the Savage bolt gun, I get right around the 2200 fps, like the charts of fifty or more years ago, state we should be getting. No sign, whatsoever, of excess pressure. Thus, I will likely be working up a maximum load from this.
Interestingly, I had one loaded vintage cartridge, a CIL Imperial 170 grain from about the 1950s. It gave me a velocity of 2206 fps, just like the old ballistic charts claimed!
Now, back to the 150 grain pointed bullets. Hodgdon on line state a maximum of 33.5 grains
Thus, again being a reckless, bad boy type gun nut, I load 35.5 grains of IMR 4895 behind a 150 grain pointed bullet. Again, no sign whatsoever, of excess pressure and the chrono shows 2300 fps. This doesn't appear to me to be a barn burning speed for a 30-30 to be driving a 150 grain bullet.
My load building for the Savage rifle will continue.
And to all you people out there. What I have written here is not to be taken as advice of how you should load your ammunition. You reloader's out there, always go by your loading books and do not try to duplicate loads that I have written here.
I have sated what I have done, which in no way should be interpreted as to what you should do.

Sorry for the long quote, but what 150gr pointed bullets are you using? Are you having any trouble with your COL and the bullets ogive?

 

[H4831]

Sorry for the long quote, but what 150gr pointed bullets are you using? Are you having any trouble with your COL and the bullets ogive?

These bullets were not in their original box, so not sure what they were, as I had several brands of 150s for my 30-06.
They are not ideal. They have a canalure, so I seated them with a vey slight crimp in the groove. If they are chambered but not fired, they are too long to eject out of the chamber. I have to take the magazine out and let them drop out the bottom.
All in all, the 170 grain bullets seem ideal for a 30-30, so I doubt if I will do much more experimenting with 150 grain bullets. Over 30-30 ranges I doubt if the pointed 150 grain are enough better ballistically than the round nose 170, to be even noticed in real world shooting.
I have just started to try Hodgdon's LVR powder, but I think I can get a good 2350 fps, with 170 grain bullets, with very modest pressure. I'll probably settle for a load of something like that.

 

[257Roberts]

sobo4303 and H4831
I have an old issue of Handloader March-April 1977 Number 66.
Ken Waters pet loads for the 30-30 Winchester. He loaded for three rifles a 94, a Savage 340c and a winchester 54.
There are a lots of loads and there is a definite increase in powder charges for the bolt rifles but not the increase in velocity that you would expect.
There is loads listed the he achieved about 2350 with 170gr FN bullets for the bolt rifles using 33 gr. of both IMR4064 and H-4895 and stated not to be used in a lever rifle!

I also have a H&R in 30-30 that I picked this past spring. It is a three bbl. set with a 20 gauge and 22 Hornet barrels to go along with the 30-30.
I have yet to try spitzer bullets but if they work anything like the FN bullets they will be great. I have checked the OAL that the 30-30 loads could be loaded to using 150gr sierras # 2130 in my H&R and the OAL would be fairly long with not a lot of bullet seated in the 30-30 neck. ( long throat )

H4831 I did have a CIL bolt rifle in 30-30 for a time and tried some FN 150 gr. reloads and they worked great. Was given a great deal to move it along and away it went.
Some day one will come back to me to try it again. Best of luck with the savage, a bedding job might be well worth the effort, I was planning on doing that with my CIL before it left me.
If you can get a copy of that Handloader it would be of some use.

Happy reloading and let us know how things work out.
David

 

[sobo4303]

Actually, I am also using the 150 gr Sierra 2130. In my rifle, backing off about 30 thou., my bullet is seated approximately 90% into the neck of the casing. With the little 110 V-Max, now that one is seated substantially less (approximately 50%), therefore there is more powder room. Hence, the reason for my post. The use of pointed bullets and the larger OAL (lever have a restricted length due to their loading mechanisms) means having the capacity for greater powder and CUP pressure. Just dunno how far to reasonably push it.

 

[257Roberts]

Actually, I am also using the 150 gr Sierra 2130. In my rifle, backing off about 30 thou., my bullet is seated approximately 90% into the neck of the casing. With the little 110 V-Max, now that one is seated substantially less (approximately 50%), therefore there is more powder room. Hence, the reason for my post. The use of pointed bullets and the larger OAL (lever have a restricted length due to their loading mechanisms) means having the capacity for greater powder and CUP pressure. Just dunno how far to reasonably push it.

I have not started working on a load for that rifle yet. been working on the 22 hornet this summer. Once things start to settle down at work in a couple weeks I will be going to have a look at the 30-30. Lets keep in touch.

David

 

[sobo4303]

I have not started working on a load for that rifle yet. been working on the 22 hornet this summer. Once things start to settle down at work in a couple weeks I will be going to have a look at the 30-30. Lets keep in touch.

David

Sounds like a plan!

 

[bigedp51]

The limiting factor with your 30-30 and your handy rifle will be your brass, the cartridge is designed for a maximum chamber pressure of 38,000 cup or 42,000 psi. The factory doesn't need to make the brass cases as strong as higher pressure .308 Winchester cases as an example. You will need to measure base expansion of the case and find the cases elastic limits. Also note that some 30-30 cases will be thicker and better to withstand higher pressures by some manufactures.

You can also look at reloading data for single shot pistols, the Hodgdon's reloading data stays within SAAMI pressures even for the contender type pistols.

I have some 30-30 cases that are over 25 years old, I do not load my 30-30 Winchester rifle with hot loads. These cases usually only die after having a split neck but that doesn't happen very often. You have a 30-30 and not a .300 Winchester magnum and my sons first rifle was a 30-30 Handy Rifle and it shot the same loads that I shot in my 30-30 rifle.

In 46 years of reloading I have never had a case head separation or catastrophic case failure, and when your hunting with your handy rifle the animal will never know the difference if the bullet is moving 200 fps faster.

 

[07blackwater]

Sorry for the long quote, but what 150gr pointed bullets are you using? Are you having any trouble with your COL and the bullets ogive?

I've found with speer btsp , due to the shape of the ogive , they can be seater closer to the lands than others and still have a shorter oal.

I use them in my 270 to stay close to the lands and still fit in the mag. They're cheap enough to try a box.


To the OP. I've only loaded for a Lever action but you might want to try leverevolution powder.

With 36.3 grains a cci 200 primer and 170's I'm getting an honest 2200 fps from my 20" barrel and no pressure signs.

I tried WLR primers and it didn't work out so well.

I'd imagine with 150's (and a little extra room in the case) they would really fly. With the 170's and seated at the cannelure the case is full. Very low extreme spread and very accurate.

 

[H4831]

sobo4303 and H4831
I have an old issue of Handloader March-April 1977 Number 66.
Ken Waters pet loads for the 30-30 Winchester. He loaded for three rifles a 94, a Savage 340c and a winchester 54.
There are a lots of loads and there is a definite increase in powder charges for the bolt rifles but not the increase in velocity that you would expect.
There is loads listed the he achieved about 2350 with 170gr FN bullets for the bolt rifles using 33 gr. of both IMR4064 and H-4895 and stated not to be used in a lever rifle!

I also have a H&R in 30-30 that I picked this past spring. It is a three bbl. set with a 20 gauge and 22 Hornet barrels to go along with the 30-30.
I have yet to try spitzer bullets but if they work anything like the FN bullets they will be great. I have checked the OAL that the 30-30 loads could be loaded to using 150gr sierras # 2130 in my H&R and the OAL would be fairly long with not a lot of bullet seated in the 30-30 neck. ( long throat )

H4831 I did have a CIL bolt rifle in 30-30 for a time and tried some FN 150 gr. reloads and they worked great. Was given a great deal to move it along and away it went.
Some day one will come back to me to try it again. Best of luck with the savage, a bedding job might be well worth the effort, I was planning on doing that with my CIL before it left me.
If you can get a copy of that Handloader it would be of some use.

Happy reloading and let us know how things work out.
David

Thanks David, for the info.
I have given away boxes of old shooting magazines from the dates you mention for Ken Waters, good chance I once had that magazine, but wasn't interested in the 30-30 at the time!
And yes, pretty well all my bolt rifles get bedded and I have already sized up the Savage for it.
I'm side tracked from it for a bit now, but will keep you posted.
Bruce

 

[H4831]

The limiting factor with your 30-30 and your handy rifle will be your brass, the cartridge is designed for a maximum chamber pressure of 38,000 cup or 42,000 psi. The factory doesn't need to make the brass cases as strong as higher pressure .308 Winchester cases as an example. You will need to measure base expansion of the case and find the cases elastic limits. Also note that some 30-30 cases will be thicker and better to withstand higher pressures by some manufactures.

You can also look at reloading data for single shot pistols, the Hodgdon's reloading data stays within SAAMI pressures even for the contender type pistols.

I have some 30-30 cases that are over 25 years old, I do not load my 30-30 Winchester rifle with hot loads. These cases usually only die after having a split neck but that doesn't happen very often. You have a 30-30 and not a .300 Winchester magnum and my sons first rifle was a 30-30 Handy Rifle and it shot the same loads that I shot in my 30-30 rifle.

In 46 years of reloading I have never had a case head separation or catastrophic case failure, and when your hunting with your handy rifle the animal will never know the difference if the bullet is moving 200 fps faster.

It appears that you did not understand my post.
I was pointing out how all the modern reloading charts are publishing loads s great deal lighter than they once were, but claiming at least as much velocity.
I stated that for many years a load published in the charts of the day, virtually became the standard load for a 30-30. It was 33 grains of 3031 powder behind a 170 grain bullet.
I stated how I looked at Hodgdon's on line and saw their "maximum" load for 170 grain bullet with 3031 powder was 29.2 grains!
Same cartridge, same calibre, same bullet, same powder, only they now show 12.5% less of a charge!
BUT, Hodgdon's show the velocity as being the same as it used to be, around 2200 fps.
I stated how I loaded the old standard load of 33 grains of 3031 powder and achieved about exactly what it used to be, right around the 2200 fps.
I am bewildered why you would reply with what you did, but thanks anyway, for telling me the 30-30 is not a 300 Winchester magnum.

 

[sobo4303]

You have a 30-30 and not a .300 Winchester magnum and my sons first rifle was a 30-30 Handy Rifle and it shot the same loads that I shot in my 30-30 rifle.

I think that comment was not necessary, as at that point in your post, you missed my objective entirely. My goal is not push the 30/30 to be equivalent nor intended to replace higher cartridges. heck, if I wanted that, I would use my 30-06 and not even bother with the 30-30.

My goal is to see just how much better that little cartridge can be outside of the lever action, using bullets with much better BC's. I should not be using a vmax bullets in my tube mag but with the single shot, it is not an issue. So now, comes the experimentation.

That's it. A 30-30 casing with pointy bullets, what is the best I can achieve and tweak.

 

[bigedp51]

It appears that you did not understand my post.
I was pointing out how all the modern reloading charts are publishing loads s great deal lighter than they once were, but claiming at least as much velocity.
I stated that for many years a load published in the charts of the day, virtually became the standard load for a 30-30. It was 33 grains of 3031 powder behind a 170 grain bullet.
I stated how I looked at Hodgdon's on line and saw their "maximum" load for 170 grain bullet with 3031 powder was 29.2 grains!
Same cartridge, same calibre, same bullet, same powder, only they now show 12.5% less of a charge!
BUT, Hodgdon's show the velocity as being the same as it used to be, around 2200 fps.
I stated how I loaded the old standard load of 33 grains of 3031 powder and achieved about exactly what it used to be, right around the 2200 fps.
I am bewildered why you would reply with what you did, but thanks anyway, for telling me the 30-30 is not a 300 Winchester magnum.

H4831

I did not address you in my post or point a finger at you in any way, I simply stated in "MY" post the brass is the limiting factor when reloading the 30-30 and chamber pressure. If I wanted to criticize you or your post I would have "quoted" it in my reply and addressed "YOU" personally. This posting isn't about you H4831 it is about the OP wanting to use pointed bullets and exceed published loading data.

I just bought a Handi rifle in 30-30. Helluva little shooter. So, to the point, I can shoot all sorts of ballistic tipped bullets and am not in the least limited to the flat nose as this is a break open. That means I can load the ogive closer to the rifling lands which then leaves more room in the case for the powder charge, which since most data is designed for the levers and not the stronger break open actions, would mean that maximum published loads are going to be exceeded.

So as to not completely re-invent the wheel, has anyone out there experimented with a Handi riflle in 30-30 and willing to share comments/notes?

sobo4303

You stated in your first post you were going to be exceeding published reloading data. The average deer in Pennsylvania U.S.A. is shot at 40 yards or less therefore I saw no reason to hot rod the loads for my 30-30 handy rifle and over stress the brass with higher pressures. I also stated I have 30-30 cases that were over 25 years old and they didn't get to be that old by loading my rifle "HOT". I experimented with pointed bullets and hotter loads in the Handy Rifle "BUT" the trigger pull was horrendous in this rifle and I got rid of it and bought my son a better rifle the following year. The 30-30 Ackley Improved can increase your velocity 200 to 300 fps without exceeding normal working pressure of 38,000 cup or 42,000 psi.

Its your rifle you do what you want, BUT I will say this again, the 30-30 brass cartridge case wasn't designed for higher pressures as the more modern cases like the .308 are and if you do jack the pressures up the cases will not last as long. (Now ask yourself how I know this, and think about it)

If you read P.O. Ackley's book in his experiments with bolt thrust and the 30-30 he removed the locking lugs from the 30-30 and fired several test rounds. The case gripped the chamber walls and did "NOT" move and the case did not stretch. At the normal operating pressures the 30-30 is loaded to the brass will not stretch to meet the bolt face. Meaning if loaded to "NORMAL" rated pressures the cases will last a very long time.

 

[Goldenlakepete]

In Sam Fadala's great book "Winchester's .30-30, Model 94 he recommends a load of 38 grs of H335 with a 150 gr bullet. Muzzle velocity of 2570 fps in a 20" barrel, 2636 fps in a 26" barrel.

Anyone out there with a chronograph ever tested this load?

In my 20" barreled M94 AE XTR a load of 37 grs of H335 with a 150 gr Winchester round nose bullet shows no signs of pressure and is extremely accurate and powerful. Complete pass through on broadside shots on large deer.

 

[bigedp51]

It appears that you did not understand my post.
I was pointing out how all the modern reloading charts are publishing loads s great deal lighter than they once were, but claiming at least as much velocity.
I stated that for many years a load published in the charts of the day, virtually became the standard load for a 30-30. It was 33 grains of 3031 powder behind a 170 grain bullet.
I stated how I looked at Hodgdon's on line and saw their "maximum" load for 170 grain bullet with 3031 powder was 29.2 grains!
Same cartridge, same calibre, same bullet, same powder, only they now show 12.5% less of a charge!
BUT, Hodgdon's show the velocity as being the same as it used to be, around 2200 fps.
I stated how I loaded the old standard load of 33 grains of 3031 powder and achieved about exactly what it used to be, right around the 2200 fps.
I am bewildered why you would reply with what you did, but thanks anyway, for telling me the 30-30 is not a 300 Winchester magnum.

H4831

I will now address you and your posting.

My 45th Lyman reloading manual dated 1970
Firearm used - universal receiver
barrel length 26 inches
170 grain bullet, 3031 powder, 28.5 grains, 2110 fps, 38,600 cup


My 49th Lyman reloading manual dated 2008
Firearm used - universal receiver
barrel length 24 inches
170 grain bullet, 3031 powder, 28.5 grains, 2054 fps, 38,900 cup

38 years between manuals, the same powder charge and a two inch shorter barrel are the only differences I see with the lower velocity due to a shorter barrel.

Hodgdon's current 30-30 reloading data
No firearm or type barrel listed
Barrel length 24 inches
170 grain bullet, 3031 powder, 29.2 grains, 2085 fps, 35,800 cup

What I see is the test data varies depending on the test barrel, barrel length and chamber pressure.

What I also see is the ammunition manufactures lowering the chamber pressures on some cartridges due to the "AGE" of the firearms the ammunition is being used in.

What I also see in the single shot pistol reloading data for the 30-30 using "pointed" bullets is the pressures are kept to the same rated pressures as the rifles data. (38,000 cup - 42,000 psi)
Now I wonder what the pressure limiting factor is for the 30-30 cartridge, the type firearm it is fired in or the cartridge case.

 

[H4831]

H4831

I will now address you and your posting.

My 45th Lyman reloading manual dated 1970
Firearm used - universal receiver
barrel length 26 inches
170 grain bullet, 3031 powder, 28.5 grains, 2110 fps, 38,600 cup


My 49th Lyman reloading manual dated 2008
Firearm used - universal receiver
barrel length 24 inches
170 grain bullet, 3031 powder, 28.5 grains, 2054 fps, 38,900 cup

38 years between manuals, the same powder charge and a two inch shorter barrel are the only differences I see with the lower velocity due to a shorter barrel.

Hodgdon's current 30-30 reloading data
No firearm or type barrel listed
Barrel length 24 inches
170 grain bullet, 3031 powder, 29.2 grains, 2085 fps, 35,800 cup

What I see is the test data varies depending on the test barrel, barrel length and chamber pressure.

What I also see is the ammunition manufactures lowering the chamber pressures on some cartridges due to the "AGE" of the firearms the ammunition is being used in.

What I also see in the single shot pistol reloading data for the 30-30 using "pointed" bullets is the pressures are kept to the same rated pressures as the rifles data. (38,000 cup - 42,000 psi)
Now I wonder what the pressure limiting factor is for the 30-30 cartridge, the type firearm it is fired in or the cartridge case.

Pretty amazing how different loading charts use the same components to come up with wildly different figures.
You are quoting a Lyman chart with the 30-30, as 28.5 grains of 3031 powder giving a 170 grain bullet a velocity of 2110 fps.
I have an old Du Pont hand loaders guide, can't see the date on it, but it shows the 30-30 with 32 grains of 3031 giving the 170 grain bullet a velocity of 2120 fps!
The Du Pont chart I'm looking at is called the "New Edition."
Probably their edition before this would show 33 grains of 3031, the load I have stated was once so popular.
Only days ago I chronographed the 33 grains of 3031 and I got about the same as they are showing in my chart for 32 grains and in your chart with 28.5 grains!
Obviously, they have an agenda to keep the loads lower, presumably with less danger of being sued, but keep the velocity figures right up there, because the vast majority of shooters do not use a chronograph and they will believe what ever figure is given them.
The 30-06 is another calibre that is all over the place. Long ago they decided on a standard load as being a 180 grain bullet going 2700 fps. Thus all factory loads claim this velocity, as well as great variations of different loads in loading charts.
4350 is a very popular powder in the 30-06 with 180 grain bullets and there is a very wide variety of loadings by different companies, all giving the 180 grain bullet about 2700 fps.
One loading book I saw gave 54 grains of 4350 as a maximum load and giving a 180 grain bullet a velocity of the usual 2700 fps.
I have never chronographed a load as low as 54 grains, but I have measured with an accurate Oehler chronograph, a load of 55 grains of 4350. and it gave a 180 grain bullet an average of 2488 fps! Quite a long ways from the 2700 stated in the loading book with only 54 grains.
Thus, we sometimes have to use common sense and go by what happens in the real world.