30-30 primer push out

[Gatehouse]

Presumably your Henry is a reasonably modern variation? Your modern rifle will be able to handle pressure significantly higher than SAAMI max for the ancient 30-30.

You are loading less than maximum listed charge and it shows lack of pressure. 2 things I would do would be to increase your charge and to partial size your cases. That's the simplest way to deal with this.

I doubt you can get much more than the maximum listed charge of Lever Evolution into the case but if you can, then it may be worth experimenting.

 

[Hitzy]

That's a classic sign of low pressure.

Yep. I'm with Andy on this.

 

[bearhunter]

I played with a Savage 340, chambered in 30-30. It's a strong action and can be loaded hotter than the cases are built for.

I used a medium burn rate powder, 44.5 grains of W748, over CCI 250 primers with 150 grain round nose, Rem Kore Lokt projectiles.

This was definitely a max load for that rifle.

Sorry I don't have more for you on it, but I gave the load work up to the fellow who bought the rifle, and didn't make any copies. Just tore the pages out of my log book.

That was the load I settled on for that rifle and from what I can remember, it shot very well at around 2700 fps, which would put it in the 300 Savage bracket.

One thing I noticed was lots of case stretching and split necks after the third reload.

The Ackley Improved version would be a better choice IMHO.

 

[Raton57]

340 is not that strong an action with only one bolt lug but does work for the 30-30 improved chambers.

 

[bearhunter]

Well, the 340 is chambered for some cartridges with pretty impressive pressure ranges, such as 222rem, 223rem and 225Win, so the op should be safe right up to that pressure range.

 

[fingers284]

The operating pressures generated by the 30-30 aren't high enough to force the case head back against the bolt hard enough to keep the primer seated and fully fireform the case at the same time, so, the primer pops out of its seat as far as it can.

I dont know what the issue is that is causing the OP's problem but I sure dont think it is lack of pressure in a factory or any hunting round for a 30-30....at 30,000 psi (or even half that much) a primer will re-seat...we sure as hell dont apply 30,000 psi seating pressure to a primer when loading them , maybe 10 lbs!!
I have fire formed a few hundred brass with very light loads, prob under #12,000 and never had a protruding primer. The only protruding primers I have ever had were when I wanted to purposely do so, in wax bullet pistol rounds with no powder in them or when i was wanting to measure headspace by using only a primer in a case with no powder to set the case back again, there is no pressure exerted to the case webb to reset.
To agree with you a bit, there is obviously a pressure build up between the primer & case webb primer pocket but I think there is something going on in the rifle's manuf (bolt face, extractor or chamber cutting) that is preventing the case from reacting normally.

 

[bearhunter]

The pressure issue is well noted in many different rifles and cartridges.

If your particular 30-30 has a tight chamber, you shouldn't see any primer issues.

Most Model 94 chambers in Winchesters and Marlins, etc are generous to say the least. when this happens, brass will expand where it's thinnest first, which would be in the neck. Then the rest of the case would follow expansion to the dimensions of the chamber.

When this happens, in milliseconds, the primer is pushed back to the bolt face, then as the pressure subsides, the case shrinks a thou or two, but there is still enough pressure inside to hold the primer against the bolt face and allow the case to move forward to fill the chamber or seat against the inside face of the rim.

The same condition will occur with rimless cases as well, with pressures in the same 36,000-40,000 psi range.

Neck resizing/partial body resizing only, will keep everything in place.

 

[fingers284]

When this happens, in milliseconds, the primer is pushed back to the bolt face, then as the pressure subsides, the case shrinks a thou or two, but there is still enough pressure inside to hold the primer against the bolt face and allow the case to move forward to fill the chamber or seat against the inside face of the rim.

Not gonna happen. in your scenario the different pressure between the primer & primer pocket is long gone & equalized between the two & the only residual pressure is between the slug & the inside case webb, pressing it back onto the primer.

In my loading room I have several hundred 30-30 fired cases from at least 3 rifles (2 94's and a Marlin 336) and every one of these rounds were BP velocity cast bullet firings so the pressures were within a spit of 20,000 or so and not a one of them has a high primer...likewise with the several thousand 45-70 rounds I have fired at a likewise BP pressure . If you want a really big quantity I can also offer up close to 300,000 low pressure .38 sp rounds the wife & I have fire at Cowboy Shoots. They come out of her pistols at 675-700 fps and her Short Rifle at 900 fps so those are ultra low pressure rounds and I cannot remember ever seeing even one protruding primer and if there were they would lock up those pistols on the recoil plate the instant they were fired.
Neither on of us has the sophisticated measuring equipment to concretely prove one or the other right....all I can offer up is several hundred thousands of personal firing experience to back my claim.

 

[bearhunter]

Not so, you forget to mention the brass shrinking.

If this situation didn't occur, primers wouldn't protrude in the first place.

 

[Suther]

The pressure issue is well noted in many different rifles and cartridges.

If your particular 30-30 has a tight chamber, you shouldn't see any primer issues.

Most Model 94 chambers in Winchesters and Marlins, etc are generous to say the least. when this happens, brass will expand where it's thinnest first, which would be in the neck. Then the rest of the case would follow expansion to the dimensions of the chamber.

That sounds like a headspace issue more than a loose chamber issue?

 

[Longstud]

Id be sending the rifle back if its new. Sounds like it has excessive headspace issues. If this is happening with factory rounds.

 

[bearhunter]

That sounds like a headspace issue more than a loose chamber issue?

They usually go hand in glove, but not always. Reamers are not all created equal.

When you and I purchase a reamer, it will be made up to our specs, or to mean SAAMI specs. With today's CNC equipment, those reamers will right on the median measurement for safe chambers, with close to perfect headspacing results, if the smith does their job.

This isn't the case with reamers purchased in quantity by firearms manufacturers. They purposely purchase them with the intention of using them as often as possible, then resharpening and, continuing the cycle until the reamer is at the point sharpening will make it too small to accept any commercial ammunition a shooter might buy.

Ammo is better now than ever, but there can be very small variations in dimensions, which will still be within specified parameters and a factory chamber has to be able to accept and shoot safely any commercially loaded cartridge made for the cartridge the rifle is chambered for.

The first Model 70 Winchester I purchased many moons ago, had a "tight chamber" It wouldn't accept any handloads unless the cases were full length resized with a "small base die"

People still run across this issue but it's much more uncommon in late built rifles than it was twenty years ago.

As you know, headspace is measured on the shoulder for rimless cases and on the rim with rimmed cartridges. Diameters of the chamber have nothing to do with headspace. Depth of cut is where it all happens.

 

[supernova]

^^^^^
.30-30 may not have enough pressure to push the case head back against the bolt face.

This. .30-30 does not produce a lot of pressure and fire forming only occurs with top end loads in my experience. I neck sized 2 pc's of brass at the range and fired them 5x with no change in shoulder position. Load was a 150gr with a mid range charge of 4895. I highly doubt there's a headspace issue with the rifle or a problem at all.

 

[Gasoline boy]

Gasoline boy, yomamma and Suther are telling you what the problem is and how to fix it.

The operating pressures generated by the 30-30 aren't high enough to force the case head back against the bolt hard enough to keep the primer seated and fully fireform the case at the same time, so, the primer pops out of its seat as far as it can.

The trick Suther is suggesting, keeps the face of the case against the bolt face during firing and allow the case to be blown out enough to fill the whole area between the bolt face and the shoulder.

You should use Suther's suggestion of slipping an "O" ring, or a small elastic band from Staples @ $2/100, and fireforming the case which will be proprietary to your rifle and likely won't fit another 30-30 chamber.

This has the added benefit of making your brass last longer, because it doesn't get worked as much, if you reset your die so that it "neck resizes" only.

I will add another suggestion, seeing as you have a lever action and locking up the bolt on a tight case can be difficult to impossible.

Use a felt marker to color your case necks and shoulders. Then when you're setting up your die, in your press, you can adjust it down until it just touches the shoulder.

Try this case, empty, in your rifle and check that the lever closes easily.

If it's a bit snug, or you're concerned about a bit of dirt/grit causing an issue, rotate your die about 3mm and push back the shoulder a few thousandths. This will partially resize the case shoulder and about 20mm of the body underneath it. No more binding.

Tighten the set screw on the die locking collar and leave it there.

If you're loading for several or even a couple of 30-30 chambered rifles, which you don't indicate, the cases from the largest chamber will not be interchangeable between firearms.

Thank you for the in-depth response. After reading the two suggestions it became clear that I should fire form the cases to the rifle. I will do a test between using an o ring and not just to see the difference. It will be interesting to see if I see an accuracy change after fireformimng the brass. Btw there are no accuracy issues with it now it took two porcupines and a doe on Wednesday and Thursday.

 

[Gasoline boy]

Presumably your Henry is a reasonably modern variation? Your modern rifle will be able to handle pressure significantly higher than SAAMI max for the ancient 30-30.

You are loading less than maximum listed charge and it shows lack of pressure. 2 things I would do would be to increase your charge and to partial size your cases. That's the simplest way to deal with this.

I doubt you can get much more than the maximum listed charge of Lever Evolution into the case but if you can, then it may be worth experimenting.

thank you. This is worth looking into as well. I will definitely get more than the max load in fire formed cases.

 

[bearhunter]

"O" rings are expensive. Go to Staples or whichever store sells stationary supplies and pick up elastic bands, which will fit tight on your pinky finger.

They'll cost about $2/100 or cheaper. The last bag I purchased came from a Dollar Store.

 

[Gatehouse]

Thank you for the in-depth response. After reading the two suggestions it became clear that I should fire form the cases to the rifle. I will do a test between using an o ring and not just to see the difference. It will be interesting to see if I see an accuracy change after fireformimng the brass. Btw there are no accuracy issues with it now it took two porcupines and a doe on Wednesday and Thursday.

In my opinion using o rings is a last resort for an old worn out rifle. If your new rifle requires something this drastic it’s way out of spec and should be returned or examined by a gunsmith

 

[Gatehouse]

thank you. This is worth looking into as well. I will definitely get more than the max load in fire formed cases.

Just keep working up to maximum then cautiously go further if you want. Your symptoms likely disappear as pressure increases.

 

[Valiant]

I'm wondering if the rifle has excessive headspace?
Take a fired case that does not have primer protruding. Cut masking tape carefully to put over the head of the cartridge and see if it still chambers. Keep adding tape until you can't chamber. This should give you an idea how much headspace.
Factory 30/30 brass or older brass the rim thickness can vary quite a bit. On a tight headspaced 30/30 I actually keep filing on some of the cases on the face of empty brass until chambers in rifle without being sticky. Dominion, imperial, federal and Winchester brass seems to be the worst with various thickness of rims. Remington brass the best but all of my brass is atleast 30 years old so quality might be different today.
Some brass usually Remington chambers without any problems. But the rim thickness can definitely vary alot on brass.

 

[M1-Garand]

"O" rings are expensive. Go to Staples or whichever store sells stationary supplies and pick up elastic bands, which will fit tight on your pinky finger.

They'll cost about $2/100 or cheaper. The last bag I purchased came from a Dollar Store.

For my 303 Enfields I have been using the little elastic bands that girls use for their hair, cheap at the Dollar store.