30/30 vs 243

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Geof

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My 12 year old daughter is excited about guns now, which of course makes her pa pa proud. She just completed her hunter's Education camp out and got to shoot a lot of firearms. We found what appeared to be a perfect rifle for her. It was an H and R single shot 243 and the price is amazing. It is only $309! But you can't get that gun with open sights, you must get a scope. Now you can get almost the exact same gun with open sights, but it is a 30/30. She would like to use the gun mostly for target practice but would like the flexibility to go after a deer, or may be even an elk if she can get within about 100 yds. She's a small girl so she can't handle a lot of kick, and she would prefer NOT to have a scope. I've shot 243s and 30/30s but I'm a big guy and I can't really remember what has more kick. But for her a little difference could be a big difference. For safety I like the idea of a single shot (will help her work on her accuracy too).
Any ways, I'd like some ideas about good guns for this young lass and give me a little more data on the differences between a 30/30 and a 243. Thanks
 
I would say on average the 3030 has more kick. But thats kinda irrelevant if recoil doesn't bother her. I find many times girls/women are just assumed to not like/can't handle recoil, when in reality many of them can quite well. Its all how they are introduced to it.
 
I'm a .243 fanatic, but I'm gonna be devils advocate for the .30-30 recoil and say that it's the guns it's chambered in(light lever carbines) that makes the .30-30 seem a bit more kicky. A nice fitting .243 with a ruber recoil pad will seem softer.
If your talking single shot, then the .30-30 will kick a little bit more with standard 150-170 gr loads compared to the .243's 60-100 gr loads.
 
I don't know to much about the size/length of the H&R gun but there is also the Marlin 336Y ( Youth model) which just came back out. 30-30 win round, has the iron sights already on there and it's drilled and tapped if one day down the line she wants to try out a scope.

http://www.digitaleditiononline.com/publication/?i=56797
Page 10-11 in the top right corner.

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=604018
Here are somemore pictures from GTPAUL thread

It's a compact size and something she'll be able to use for while, she might even have a gun for life with it. It's a single shot also, you don't have to load the magazine tube up. For recoil as another has said you can get a recoil pad for the end to help with the recoil, it's what I do and it helps.
 
blasted_saber said:
I would say on average the 3030 has more kick. But thats kinda irrelevant if recoil doesn't bother her. I find many times girls/women are just assumed to not like/can't handle recoil, when in reality many of them can quite well. Its all how they are introduced to it.
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Agreed, my 110-115lb wife can shoot my .375 H&H without the fear I see in many seasoned .30-06 hunters.

.30-30's going to pop a touch more, but out of the two, would definitely be my pick. Neither is suited to elk however, so when she gets to that point she really should have moved up to a bigger gun.
 
I have not shot a 30/30, but I have shot many rounds of 30 rem (identical twin of 30/30) and a few shots from my friends tikka t3 243. I felt the recoil from a 30 rem in a heavier gun to be more substantial than the 243 in a lighter gun. neither are big by any means but the 243 will kick less.
If you are thinking that elk may be on the menu then I would be looking to go bigger than a 243.
I'll ask again why no scope is important. You want to advocate good shot placement, and a scope will allow exactly that. The recoil from a 243 won't cause the scope to jump near the face like a 270 or 30-06 would. When you are using minimum calibres for game, and emphasizing critical shot placement it seems contradictory to be using open sights. I know that they are used a lot and can be quite accurate. I am confident with some good peep sights that I have used, but I am honest enough to admit that at 100 yds things get a little hazy through iron sights and I enjoy having a low powered scope to bring the target and my crosshairs into the same plane of focus. And I have 24 yr young eyes ;) just food for thought.
If you want to hunt elk then you may want to consider something like a 7mm-08 as well or a 6.5x55, you can get a sporterized swede or a nice husky for a decent price on tradex, depending on your budget. They are light recoiling and capable of large game.
If deer is the only target then a 243 or 30/30 will do fine. A 243 will do better for coyotes or gophers if she wants to try her hand at those.
 
StevieK said:
I have not shot a 30/30, but I have shot many rounds of 30 rem (identical twin of 30/30) and a few shots from my friends tikka t3 243. I felt the recoil from a 30 rem in a heavier gun to be more substantial than the 243 in a lighter gun. neither are big by any means but the 243 will kick less.
If you are thinking that elk may be on the menu then I would be looking to go bigger than a 243.
I'll ask again why no scope is important. You want to advocate good shot placement, and a scope will allow exactly that. The recoil from a 243 won't cause the scope to jump near the face like a 270 or 30-06 would. When you are using minimum calibres for game, and emphasizing critical shot placement it seems contradictory to be using open sights. I know that they are used a lot and can be quite accurate. I am confident with some good peep sights that I have used, but I am honest enough to admit that at 100 yds things get a little hazy through iron sights and I enjoy having a low powered scope to bring the target and my crosshairs into the same plane of focus. And I have 24 yr young eyes ;) just food for thought.
If you want to hunt elk then you may want to consider something like a 7mm-08 as well or a 6.5x55, you can get a sporterized swede or a nice husky for a decent price on tradex, depending on your budget. They are light recoiling and capable of large game.
If deer is the only target then a 243 or 30/30 will do fine. A 243 will do better for coyotes or gophers if she wants to try her hand at those.
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You have a cowboy in your picture but you've never shot a 3030?!
 
I think your question is open sights or not. Both cartridges are readily available and are capable of taking up to deer sized game in the confident hands of the shooter. I also believe that you can get managed recoil ammunition for the 30-30. That being said the 30-30 has the open sights and can be scoped but the 243 can only be scoped so let your daughter decide what sight preference she would like. I have 3 girls and only the youngest one, at 24, is starting to take an interest in shooting. Best of luck on her decision and good for you having your daughter's interest it our sport.
257Roberts
 
Sounds like a great opportunity to start handloading. The .30/30 loaded with 125 gr pointed bullets will shoot pretty flat and the recoil will be minimal. I've done the same thing for novice shooters, starting them with the .30/06. A 125 loaded to 2600 has enough oomph for deer and is gentle in both recoil and bark. As the shooter's experience grows, a 150 loaded to 2700 will solve most problems that need solving without being unpleasant. In the case of the .30/30 the 150 tops out at about 2400. As 8mmpeter said above, the 6.5X55 is another fine cartridge, but if you handload it doesn't matter much which cartridge you choose. My 12 year old grandson didn't have any problem shooting my .375 Ultra loaded with 300 gr cast bullets at 1200 fps; he rang the 100 yard steel plates with boring regularity off-hand his first time out with that thing.

As to choosing a particular rifle, I can understand the desire to get a hinge action rifle, they are short, light, and inexpensive. But for the same money, a high quality bolt action commercial sporting rifle (as opposed to a milsurp) can be acquired from Tradex. But regardless of which rifle you choose for her, be sure it fits her. This almost certainly means cutting the stock, which should then be finished with good quality recoil pad. As she grows, spacers can be added as required. If the LOP is too long the felt recoil will be stronger, and it is easier to adapt to a stock that is too short rather than too long.

Most iron sights that come from the factory on commercial rifles leave much to be desired. A rear peep sight is the best from the point of precision and speed as the shooter need only focus on the front sight rather than the struggle of attempting to line things up as is the case with an open rear sight. XS and NECG make peep sights that mount to a common Weaver base. Peep sights come in two basic styles, peep and ghost ring. The peep sight generally has a thick rim and small aperture, while the ghost ring has a thin rim which ghosts out of your vision as you concentrate on the front sight, and a large aperture. The ghost ring gives up little in precision and if very fast to acquire. The purist will insist that the large disk with a pinhole aperture is far more precise, but the difference in precision cannot be appreciated when field shooting, while the difference in speed can be.

A receiver mounted peep sight or ghost ring requires a higher than normal front sight. IMHO, the best front sight is a rectangular post as the sharp edges are easier to focus on than a round bead, and unlike the bead, the flat top of the post provides a precise index of elevation, not unlike the horizontal wire of a cross hair. The center of the post is easily discerned by the human eye and this equates to the vertical cross hair wire.

The important thing is that your daughter's rifle fits her and that she likes it. If it fits her, she'll shoot it well, and if she shoots it well, and likes it, she'll want to shoot it a lot, which is a good thing, except for your wallet. The real cost of shooting is the cost of the ammunition, not the rifle. Minimize the cost of the ammunition, and you guys can shoot more rounds per dollar.
 
Nathan231 said:
You have a cowboy in your picture but you've never shot a 3030?!
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Actually very few "cowboys" would have shot a .30-30. The cartridge of choice in those days would have been a .44, .44 long, or at the end, a .44-40 as their pistols were also chambered in the same cartridge.
The .30-30 came along 22 yrs later at the end of the "cowboy" era and it used one of the first "smokeless" powders. Probably a cordite derivative...
 
Go larger in caliber than .243 or .30/30 and get her a rifle that fits her with the sights she wants. Then manage the recoil with reduced power loads. Remington makes a line of reduced recoil ammo, you can load your own, or find a friend to load them for you.

That way she can use the same rifle for deer, elk maybe even moose when she is older and has developed the shooting skills and ability to deal with recoil. You might even consider starting her our with low power loads and concentrate on building skills, then work up the power as the skills build.

The 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser from Tradex is a great idea. There is a great article on reduced power loads in either the 2008 or 2009 Hodgdon Annual manual that is published in magazine format.
 
The first rifle I purchased for my 10 year son (16 years ago now) was a 21" barreled stainless steel T/C Contender carbine in 30-30.

I loaded it with 125gr Ballistic Tips and 150gr JRN next barrel I purchased for him was a 16.5" match chamber 22LR for all of his grouse hunting.

When he got a bit older and while it was still legal to do I sent the 30-30 barrel to Mike Bellm who rechambered it to his wildcat 308Bellm = 444 Marlin brass necked down/resized with 308 Win dies I load this round to 300 Savage ballistics = 150gr Jacketed anything to over 2600fps.

We now have 3 of these rifles and I have a 4 year old that is already shooting the 22LR and I just picked up a 410 barrel for him to try in a few years.

So after all that I would recommend the 30-30 from your two choices another cartridge that comes to mind is the new 6.8 SPC = 270 cal 95gr TTSX @ 2825fps from a 18.6" barrel it will do anything the 30-30 can do plus reach out to almost what a 243 can do.
 
rookie wildcat said:
Actually very few "cowboys" would have shot a .30-30. The cartridge of choice in those days would have been a .44, .44 long, or at the end, a .44-40 as their pistols were also chambered in the same cartridge.
The .30-30 came along 22 yrs later at the end of the "cowboy" era and it used one of the first "smokeless" powders. Probably a cordite derivative...
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Thanks for the history lesson! Not trying to be rude, I'm serious! :)
 
"...a perfect rifle for her..." Not if it doesn't fit her properly.
"...can't really remember what has more kick..." It's all about physics. The .243 uses lighter bullets. Mind you, out of a 7 pound rifle either one will have some felt recoil, but the .243 with a 100 grain bullets vs a 150 out of a .30-30, will feel like it has less.
Don't think I'd go with a Handi-rifle in either chambering. Too light.
"...You have a cowboy in your picture but..." Geez, Bonnie Hunt is right. Young people don't know nothin'. That'd be John Wayne and there was no such thing as a .30-30 when the American West was wild. snicker.
 
Nathan231 said:
Thanks for the history lesson! Not trying to be rude, I'm serious! :)
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No slight perceived. Oh and BTW, that "cowboy"??? Is John Wayne. NOT exactly a cowboy, not even alive when we had cowboys. Although he "played" a cowboy about 100 years after cowboys were around...;)

eta: Whoops sunray, didn't see your post...
 
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