30-30 vs. 45/70

Shooting a bull in the neck and hitting the spine would be like shooting through a side walk and hitting a tree root. Given the circumstances, a miss with a .45/70 is little different than a miss with a .30/30.
 
how about a simple Mossberg 500, or Maverick 88. $200-250, and would be versatile around the farm. it is what a dairy farmer friend of mine has used for years for dispatching animals and pest control.
you can buy single-shot 45/70s for the same price range, but if something goes wrong you dont want to be fumbling around trying to reload while being charged by an animal that weighs nearly a ton.

buy a couple boxes of hard-cast Brennekes or Brenneke Black Magics. the Black Magic is a 600 grain .72 cal projectile :eek:
if you dont reload, a standard Brenneke delivers 2460 ft-lbs @1510fps, the Black Magic delivers 3015 ft-lbs @1500fps at the muzzle, compared to a factory 45/70 405gr. at 1330fps/1590ft-lbs or 300gr. at 1810fps/2180ft-lbs. if you reload you can get a lot more out of a .45/70 - those are just factory numbers from the Remington site.

a 12 gauge also has other uses around a farm - he uses his with the lightest shot to dispatch critters inside and around his outbuildings, although its not really suitable for coyotes - which are his biggest problem with the calves.
 
Many years ago a brother shot an elk with the 45-70 Springfield trapdoor, the rifle with the weaker action that factory ammunition is designed for. He had Winchester factory 405 grain bullet. The elk was at about a 45 degree angle and the bullet went clean through the elk.
 
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I have a slug barrel for my 12gauge 1100. I didn't really give it much consideration. What do ballistics tables say on the slugs? I figured the 30-30 would go much deeper. Would the slug be better than a 7mm? And just to clarify, the vet said neck shot, he wanted the brain stem. I hit where aimed, I was less than 5 feet from the animal.
 
I would think at 5 feet a 12 gauge slug(or better yet a sabot) would be able penetrate plenty far and the extra diameter of the slug would give much more collateral damage. This I would think would cause greater shock to the body, and hopefully a quicker cull. I don't think much research has been done on neck shots to Moose at 5 feet with various rounds...although it would make an interesting youtube video.
 
This is no diferent than the Elmer Keith -Jack Conor arguments of the 60's other than the 30/30 isn't a high velocity bullet like a .270. The point is which does more damage a Honda Civic travelling 70 mph or a Ford 3/4 ton travelling 70mph????????? When in doubt BIGGER is BETTER!
 
Bullets from magnums at close range don't always work out to well.....Just to much speed for the bullet to stand.

My vote goes to a 12ga slug or the 45/70 with a heavy bullet.....405gr or more.

Russ...
 
Thats exactly what I am saying about the 12 slug.

A winchester 3 inch 12 gauge Super X 1 oz slug has a muzzle energy of 3010 pounds

A Winchester 300 grain Super X 45/70 has a muzzle energy of 2300 pounds

700 pounds of difference at that close of a range is a huge asset.

Find the biggest heaviest and fastest 12 gauge sabot or jacketed slug and I don't think a Moose would stand for very long at 5 feet.

The energy it is being hit with will drop it real fast I would think to the spine it would nearly seperate the entire head. If your a hand loader you coul dload a 3.5 inch hull with a slug. Yowzers.
 
depending on the weight of bullet a 7mm Rem Mag should have about 200 more ft-lbs at the muzzle but a much smaller frontal area. im not sure what would happen if you shot something 5 feet away with a magnum? i guess bullet choice would be important. only time i ever shot anything at that range with a centerfire was a groundhog and i ended up wearing most of it.
ask someone who knows more about ballistics like Boomer or TB.

i made the 12ga. suggestion because through a friend i get to meet and hang around with a lot of dairy farmers and many only keep a 12 ga around.
i know nothing about dispatching big animals though - biggest animal i shot with a Brenneke was a 110kg boar and it went down like a sack of bricks, slug went through the shoulder and both lungs and exited very neatly. watch your backstop with these as they will keep going. theyre not so popular in Canada but in the States, Alaska and Europe a lot of people use them for bigger game.
 
some gelatin tests of Brennekes:
tacticalshotgun.ca/content_sub/gelatin_testing/brenneke_r10/gelatin_slug_brenneke_r10.html

standard cheap foster slug:
tacticalshotgun.ca/content_nonsub/gelatin_testing/slug_win_1600/slug_win_1600.html

general shotgun ballistics with some thorough hunting results near the bottom, albeit with reduced recoil slugs. it should still give you some idea of how they perform:
tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html
 
As you probably already know, head shots are a piece of cake on cattle. However, if the vet needed the brain intact, why not shoot it in the heart/lungs as you would a moose. I read of all the one shot kills on moose here, not too many stories of shooting one 5 times...
 
It's not surprising that your 30-30 was a little short on steam if the vet wanted a neck shot. If your bull was anything like our Hereford or Charlois, those necks are like massive tree trunks. If I had to put a cow/steer/etc. down, it was one through the brain, but given your vet's instructions, you were in a bit of a bind, I'd say. Yes, a 400 grain 45-70 flat nose would have broken that bull's neck first shot, provided you are good at estimating exactly where that spine is, buried in all that muscle. I was reading an account by a buffalo hunter the other day (fellow hunted buffalo back in the 1800's professionally, dropping about 50 per day). His spot of choice was the neck, but he used big, heavy bullets out of his black powder rifle. I shoot both the 30-30 and the 45-70 and there's no comparison when it comes to penetration .... the 400 grain, flat nose bullet at 1,400 fps is like a freight train and no bull's neck is going to stop it, so better make sure there's nothing important standing behind the bull when you use a 45-70. I'd imagine, however, that it isn't every day that a vet asks for a neck shot. If you could get the old boy in a chute, you could have simply opened up its carotid with a knife, then given him a poke to get out quick so he didn't pass out in the chute (else you'd be dragging him out with a tractor). But I'm guessing that wasn't practical at the location you were at. The 30-30 is a good round, but not for 2,000 pound animals.
 
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A friend of mine is a guide. He has seen a lot of moose shot. When I said I like neck shots because they spoil less meat, he told me it was not a good bet. A spine hit is deadly, but he says many neck shots turn out to be non quick kills.

I guess there is a danger in taking a few kills and tryign to draw generl conclusions. I have shot one deer and omne moose in the neck. Both clipped the spine (good luck more than good marksmanship) and were instant kills.

He urged me to shoot the chest, just behind the shoulder. Go for the big target.

Anyway, if I had to carry one of my guns in the truck in case I had to put down a cow or bull, I would use a 12 ga with a slug.
 
I've shogt bulls with a .22LR and .45 ACP. In the brain, they both dpo the job,bit the 45 seems to work better...

If I had to take one out without hitting the brain, I'd put the muzzle just behind the head, and nail the spine.
 
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